Part P - Elecrtics Help - Please!

[smoothcrm]

Hi

i am trying to get clarification on something if you kind people could help please ?

Basically I have recently installed some new sockets installed on a new ring main, and then got the distribution board installed (split load 17th edt etc) to replace the old fuse wire board.

I had this completed by a non part p certified sparky but I had informed the council building control before the work started and after etc and paid them over a ton for the privilege!!

But the council want to see the test certificate BS7671 but I don’t have one as the sparky didn’t do any testing like this as he doesn’t have any test equipment etc and he is not part P? Which I knew and also told the council before he changed the board.

So what do I have to do now to sort this all out?
I thought by the fact I went through the correct channels i.e. council building control etc they would do the part P testing bit for me?
isn’t that what I have paid them for ?

Or do I know need to pay another 200 odd pounds to a part P sparky to do a periodic inspection ? And will this cover it?
Which confuses me to why I needed to pay the council in the first place ?

Surely this means all sparkys always have to become part P or they can never do any work ?

Many thanks, for your help, there doesn’t seem to be a simple guide on what to do, all im trying to do is the right thing !

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I had this completed by a non part p certified sparky

Why???

but I had informed the council building control before the work started and after etc and paid them over a ton for the privilege!!

Did you read what the council's policy is on work carried out by non-registered electricians?

When you submitted your notification, what did you say would be the way that compliance with P1 would be ensured?

When the council wrote back with the approval for you to go ahead, did they say anything about 3rd party certification?

But the council want to see the test certificate BS7671

That's perfectly reasonable - if they didn't I&T themselves I would hope they would want to see one.

but I don’t have one as the sparky didn’t do any testing like this as he doesn’t have any test equipment etc and he is not part P?

And this is where you have gone horribly wrong with your choice of electrician. Not being registered to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations is perfectly OK, if a tad inconvenient and uncompetitive, but not having or using test equipment is an absolute no-no.

[edit] - sorry - missed a word which made the sentence the opposite of what it should have been [/edit]




An electrician does not have to be registered in order to test his work, and he does not have to be registered in order to issue BS 7671 certificates.

Your problem is not that you used an unregistered person, it's that you used a dangerous and incompetent cowboy instead of a proper electrician.

Which I knew and also told the council before he changed the board.

You knew that he was unable to work and test and certify to BS 7671 and yet you still used him?

What were you thinking of? Where did you find this buffoon?

So what do I have to do now to sort this all out?

At this stage whatever your council says - you're too late to undo the mess.

I thought by the fact I went through the correct channels i.e. council building control etc they would do the part P testing bit for me?
isn’t that what I have paid them for ?

In theory yes, but not all councils play by the rules, yours doesn't and now it's too late anyway.

Or do I know need to pay another 200 odd pounds to a part P sparky to do a periodic inspection ?

You should have a competent person check it, if only for your own safety - who knows what cock-ups your cowboy did. The electrician does not need to be registered to do this, but if your council say he does then you'll have to go along with what they say.

And will this cover it?

That's for the council to decide.

Which confuses me to why I needed to pay the council in the first place ?

Because you didn't use a registered electrician.

Surely this means all sparkys always have to become part P or they can never do any work ?

No, but you didn't use a proper sparky, and you're getting that mess mixed up with the issues of non-registered but competent people doing work.

Many thanks, for your help, there doesn’t seem to be a simple guide on what to do, all im trying to do is the right thing !

Was there nothing on your council website? Did you read Approved Document P?

 

[Paul_C]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the person who did the work may be, the position with regard to testing and inspection for Part P is clear.

When you notified the work and paid the building fee, was the council offering you a specific reduction in the fee if you supplied a certificate? From the price mentioned, I suspect not.

If you did not notify under that caveat to get a reduced fee, then legally the council has no authority to demand that you supply them with a certificate at all. Certain local authorities are still trying to demand that, but they have no legal backing and have been told to stop, so don't let them intimidate you with nonsense about "You must do this" etc.

If you paid the full applicable fee, then if the council wants a certificate it's up to them to arrange testing or pay for it out of the fee you gave them.

Of course, if you have doubts about the competence of the person who did the work and want to pay for an independent inspection for your own peace of mind, that's another matter.

 

[smoothcrm]

Thanks for your reply – all beit seems more of a rant at me despite the fact, I have tried to do all the right processes as dictated by the council !!!

it's that you used a dangerous and incompetent cowboy instead of a proper electrician.

you say this purely based on the fact he has no test equipment ?
cant say I see that as fair, if he still is qualified etc

I didn’t know he didn’t have any test equipment before he did the work, there is only so much as a customer who's profession is not electrics one can ask before employing someone !!

But as i say I asked and informed the council that the sparky was not part p, the council chap came around and checked the work before and after he installed the board and said it was fine but just wants to see the tests, which as i said i wasn’t excepting, i thought that was their job? as i paid them etc.

you say

In theory yes, but not all councils play by the rules, yours doesn't and now it's too late anyway.

so this really helps me doesn’t it? Completely makes the whole process pointless doesn’t it.

SO no matter what, you always have to go get a part P person whatever, and tough luck to all sparkys who are qualified but haven’t spent the money on the part p bit ??? I didn’t go with a part P person just simply because of the difference in costs and the fact, I knew the already chap and from what the council said I didn’t actually have to??

Was there nothing on your council website? Did you read Approved Document P?

Again i stress - I am / Was trying to do things in the right way, the policy on the councils site does not clearly state anything regarding this work other than to fill out the form and inform them etc i and told them !!!!
- Which i DID !

And im supposed to know, read and understand part P document am I - so how do i go about knowing the content of this doc without being told about it before hand-
AGAIN i say i spoke to the council for this purpose i told them the sparky wasn’t part p registered and that wasn’t a problem.

I am just trying to sort it out, im not stupid and dont want to have an untested circuit, every thing i have done on this house has made it 20 times better than if i had just ignored it, lived with it, and left it without having changed the board or replacing the non earthed cables etc.

 

[flameport]

Surely this means all sparkys always have to become part P or they can never do any work ?

Some LABCs will allow competent electricians to submit building notices to them for a reduced fee (after they confirm the electrician has the relevant qualifications etc).

Another scenario is an electrician who mainly does work on new-build properties or extensions, in which case there would be no need to notify the electrical work separately.

If someone only does minor work or repairs that would not be notifiable at all. However for anything else, it is simply too expensive to not be registered, as paying the LABC fee for each job will very quickly exceed the cost of registration.

If the person you employed had no test equipment, they should not have changed the fusebox or done any other electrical work. The council might test it for you, although they are only looking for compliance with building regulations, which is not the same as complying with BS7671.

Realistically, you will probably have to pay someone else to test and inspect, and repair any defects found.

 

[smoothcrm]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the person who did the work may be, the position with regard to testing and inspection for Part P is clear.

When you notified the work and paid the building fee, was the council offering you a specific reduction in the fee if you supplied a certificate? From the price mentioned, I suspect not.

If you did not notify under that caveat to get a reduced fee, then legally the council has no authority to demand that you supply them with a certificate at all. Certain local authorities are still trying to demand that, but they have no legal backing and have been told to stop, so don't let them intimidate you with nonsense about "You must do this" etc.

If you paid the full applicable fee, then if the council wants a certificate it's up to them to arrange testing or pay for it out of the fee you gave them.

Of course, if you have doubts about the competence of the person who did the work and want to pay for an independent inspection for your own peace of mind, that's another matter.

Many thanks for this, this makes sense,
i have no doubt that the sparky has replaced the board correctly. (yes i am not a trained sparky so how can i tell?) but its neat, tidy and i watched him do it etc i have seen it done before correctly as well.

Your right i have paid 100 odd pounds to the council and all i got was a recipt and thanks - nothing that stated - we shall do testing , or you do testing for less of a fee etc

or formal guidance on this is what you need to do - i spoke to them and they said we shall check once work is complete and nothing else until i got the work complete !

if they would have said get it checked and tested we need to see results etc i would have asked the sparky up front an not be in this situation !

thanks

 

[flameport]

it's that you used a dangerous and incompetent cowboy instead of a proper electrician.

you say this purely based on the fact he has no test equipment ?
cant say I see that as fair, if he still is qualified etc

As testing is a requirement of BS7671, it is clear that the person who installed it either did not know this, or chose to deliberately ignore it.
They therefore either have no knowledge of the regulations (current or previous), or they are a bodger who chose not to do the job properly.

Untested means just that. It could all be installed and working properly. There may be minor defects which won't become apparent for a few days/weeks/years. There could be dangerous faults waiting to kill someone, cause a fire or both.

 

[chapeau]

Morning smoothcrm.

First, ignore ban_all_sheds. He likes to jump in first with his agressive posts and you only have to wait and more reasonable people will turn up.

Reet, sounds like you have a problem. Unfortunately, and this is quite misunderstood on here, the council have the power to make you pay for this test.

So what I'd do is be nice to the council and point out that you have already paid for their services and they should treat this in exactly the same way as when they inspect your foundations. i.e. you pay them, they inspect, and if they satisfy the regulations, they issue a certificate.

I'd also chase up your sparky buddy and tell him that you need a certificate. Basically the job ain't finished until he provides a test certificate and the fact he doesn't have test equipment is his problem and not yours.

Well it is, but he needs to solve it for you.

Of course is this all goes wrong then you might well have to get another person in to issue a certificate and but it down to experience.

 

[ericmark]

If you go here you can down load the public version of Part P in layman's language. See page 12. See 1.26 the council have to pay.

I would hope if you walk into there offices with that doc they will back down.

However it does also say where the installer are qualified to complete the certificates they should do so. To my mind that means he must hold a City & Guilds 2391 and many Electricians don't hold that qualification so unless your Electrician has been boasting he has a 2391 then can't see how they can get out of it.

I have involved the LABC and he did ask for installation certificate which I did provide and he waved all charges which I was very happy with. Mainly as occupants were disabled.

 

[mfarrow]

AGAIN i say i spoke to the council for this purpose i told them the sparky wasn’t part p registered and that wasn’t a problem.

That's not the problem though. You should have asked "my electrician hasn't got the necessary test equipment to complete an electrical installation certificate; is that OK?"

Unfortunately you didn't, and now the council are trying to play hardball. You have several options:

- Ignore the council and hope the issue is not persued and does not come up when you sell the house (likelihood is it will).
- Admit to the council that you've made a mistake, inform them of their obligations and plead with them to send one of their electricians round to test as they would do if you had done the work.
- Get your electrician to contact one of his sparky mates (he must have one surely?) to borrow his test equipment and/or him to do the testing.
- Get your electrician to complete the installation certificate with what he can (add some special notes on the Schedule of Test Results to say not all tests could be completed), send that in and see what they say.

 

[chapeau]

If you go here you can down load the public version of Part P in layman's language. See page 12. See 1.26 the council have to pay.

I would hope if you walk into there offices with that doc they will back down.

Yep, they should, but they don't have to.

At the end of the day you can take it to a magistrate to decide but I think justice is more likely to be obtained by being nice to the council.

 

[gibson8206]

I've been in a similar situation to you having paid £4,000 for a rewire and waited 3 months for a certificate and having paid another £200 on top of this only to find my name, address and even the certificate was wrong!
Sent back months ago for a new one, still awaiting. This after much chasing.
I'm not too sure he's Part "P" qualified. Didn't know at the time this was needed from an electrician.
Local council wont sign off until they have vision of certificate.
I know this isn't probably much help to you, but to let you know there are cowboys out there and I've been caught too. I surpose the next step is the small claims court to try and recoup some money back.
Wish I'd have known then what I've learnt since. Commiserations and hope you are more successful than I've been.

Best wishes from,

Gibson.

 

[smoothcrm]

Firstly, Thanks for all your constructive responses !



So as i understand it - im not likely to get a bs7671 installation form as the sparky doesnt have the kit to do it anyway and may or may not be the best sparky in the world anyway, so it may be best to just leave that one be?

no one else can do this for me in any case? as they have not installed it- Correct?


so my best bet is to probably

A) have a chat to buildings again - which i shall do when they are open and say - do you need a certificate or are your going to inscpect it as i may have paid you for part of it anyway ?

A.1) they say they will test it and do it - job done ?

A.2) they say no they need it tested

B) which means i need to get someone else to certify the installtion

or

C) get a part P spark to give me a full periodic inspection on everything which should cover it all (but not the install) but then thats no different than anyone buying a new home and getting something tested - yeah ?



Thanks !

 

[smoothcrm]

thanks

That's not the problem though. You should have asked "my electrician hasn't got the necessary test equipment to complete an electrical installation certificate; is that OK?"

yep - i didn't - but i didnt know he didn't have the equipment at the start ! nor did i know he would have been required to complete the form until after.

i thought the council was goign to do this!

cheers

 

[ericmark]

I see another post which arrived as I was writing reply. The LABC do not have to issue a installation certificate only a completion certificate and to issue the latter they have to satisfy themselves the installation is OK.

However for when you sell the house it may help if you do have a installation certificate. Only the electrician who did the work can issue that so if that means he has to hire equipment to test and enter figures then that's what he has to do. In theory he can't borrow the equipment as it needs a traceable record to show calibration of equipment but in practice the LABC never asked to see my calibration cert so there is really nothing to stop him borrowing it from a mate and filling in the paper work.

Well down to nitty gritty likely he could guess all the readings and if caught out claim his equipment was faulty and has been sent for repair. However my son admitted to me due to change in forms he entered the wrong readings for 10 houses which mean they all failed but no one picked up his mistake. So likely he would get away with guessing. Best is if found out it is the Council who are up the creak as they are responsible for safety.

I have never tried to hire but I know my firm has when their own went for calibration and they did not tend to give away money so must have been cheap.

I would never change a consumer unit without testing first, and although seems a bit harsh to me anyone who changes a consumer unit without testing can't be a real spark. To change a socket and only use Martindale neon tester OK not right but I would accept but not a consumer unit that's not really an option. If I had no test gear I would not do the job as easy as that.