Pat testing a grinder?

[mattylad]

Hi, at work I regularly maintain and repair both Bosch and Makita hand grinders, they take an awful lot of punishment and can go through brushes within a week, the cable can be damaged within a day. Ergo it is something that requires regular repair.

So once I have repaired them, often changing the mains lead our H&S manager would like them tested with our Seaward Supernova PAT tester.
No problem we though, we are competent to fix and repair them, we test electrical appliances every day.
However this old beast of a tester has not been used for years, our PAT testing is done by an outside company. Even our long term electrician cannot remember how to use it.

All we want to do is test grinders, get it to say PASS after doing the appropriate class 2 tests, we cannot print the passed labels as the printer was lost years ago the rest we will record in a book.

But what tests should it have?
What settings should each test use?

Can anyone that is familiar with the Supernova Elite please list what settings to use etc?

 

[333rocky333]

Maybe best to post a picture of the knobs and dials and maybe some can work it out by seeing that, Pat testings still relatively new so I would expect it to be not much different to a more recent tester

 

[flameport]

Seaward Supernova PAT tester.

http://www.seaward.co.uk/downloads/supernova-manual.pdf

 

[oldbutnotdead]

The tester will need calibrating and recertifying if it has been sat on a shelf for a while (now there's a thing- the PAT tester needs PAT testing ).

 

[mattylad]

It is calibrated, we do have the manual.
Neither tells us how to test a grinder on it though.

 

[ericmark]

Class II is mainly visible inspection, and since your repairing grinders first you have done all but one test before you actually come to the machine, you need to test the grinder works, and that any screws fitted have not gone in too far, this is in real terms the only thing you need the PAT tester for and it is the only time the testing is done as using 2kV can damage items if not done correctly, it is only to check screws used are not too long and have not damaged the insulation.

So you plug it in and test with wand any screws which may have gone in to far.

You should have an equipment register, a faulty equipment register, and a repair register, the free down load from IET web site gives you the format, each item of plant will have a register number and once an item is taken in for repair it is entered into the faulty equipment register and put into a quarantine area, this will be normally locked and have a notice saying how no items must be removed from this area etc, i.e. authorised personal only for example.

Once repaired then the register number will be placed in the repair register showing it is now able to be re-issued, often this is all done electronic, we had the Robin PAT tester and also the firm doing normal PAT testing had same machine, so we would give them the floppy disk to update records.

The PAT testing exam was in two parts, one how to PAT test, the other how to manage the testing, it was some 18 years ago when I did it, not actually called PAT testing it's called "The inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment" since your trying to comply with regulations you need to find out who is considered as the manager, this may be you, or it may be the firm doing the rest of the PAT testing, or could be your H&S manager, it's not how to ensure the item is safe it is how to record it all to comply with what the HSE require. I seem to remember the exam is C&G 2377 and I would suggest to ensure you satisfy a HSE inspection that you ask the H&S manager to send you on the course, both so you know exactly what is required, and you can show others like the HSE that you know how to do it. When I did it it was a night class 3 hours a week for 6 weeks, I think today it is about 3 day course.

You have to decide do you want to do PAT testing? if the answer is yes then push for course, if no then simply say sorry I don't have my C&G 2377 you will have to get the firm in to PAT test all items repaired, I don't have the bits of paper required.

There is nothing to say you need any certificates to be an electrician or to do any testing, however if some thing goes wrong, you need to show you had the skill required, since some thing has gone wrong, really the only way is to show the HSE is some written proof, be it an apprenticeship, or course taken.

 

[Gasguru]

Unless its changed you can't get a simpler qualification...I did it back in 2001.
In reality it's no more than a couple of hours training followed by a bit of practical and a half hour exam.

AFAIK this is the latest book...
https://isswww.co.uk/the-iee-code-of-practice-2013

 

[ericmark]

Time for training would depend on what you already know, and what you are going to test. When working on T5 airport building we had a portable batching plant, it arrived on 22 wagons and was a rather large unit, it took us two Sundays to test it with 3 electricians, it included things like testing gate switches worked and was rather involved, but still technically PATesting.

There were four classes of person electrical wise, ordinary, instructed, skilled, and competent the latter two have now been combined, there was a death of a lady called Emma Shaw the report was interesting reading, I would have until reading the report have considered and electricians mate as an instructed person, and as such would have not problem asking them to plug in a machine take note of readings and write them down for me to enter onto paperwork.

However the court found he was not skilled enough, fact that instead of actually writing down what the machine showed, but he concocted some results they said not his fault as not skilled. So the foreman carried the can for sending an unskilled man to do the job.

This blame culture has really altered things, and most people today want bits of paper to show some one has the skill.

I had to attend health and safety lectures when working on T5, and the Safety Officer said how every bit of electrical equipment must have a PAT testing label, or you should not use it. When I pointed out in the office we were sitting in there were items in use without the label he as expected said show me, not a single lead set had a label, the computer did, and the monitor did, but the leads could be disconnected from monitor so should have their own label.

When I suggested that every lead (there would have been hundreds) should be put into quarantine until tested he said don't be stupid, how ever that was what he had been telling us moments before that we should do.

Some times we have to use common sense!

So we were given a test, it said on one question, if the plug is damaged should you.
1) Tell your foreman.
2) Use it anyway.
3) Repair it yourself.
4) Return to stores.
Well for me correct answer is repair it, however for everyone else return to stores was correct, who would in turn enter it on faulty appliance register and send it to me for repair. I always felt these tick box questions needed a box x) Non of the above.

I use to annoy me, I would strip an grinder for repair, bearings, brushes or what ever, then could not return it to service because I did not have a bit of paper to say I could replace the disc. That was latter rectified.

 

[mattylad]

Cheers Eric, some good information there,

I am skilled enough, I have similar qualifications in electrical engineering, TBH the 18th edition and a pat test course would just be a paper shuffling exercise.
Repairing the grinders is also a very simple task to me.
Ensuring that the grinder is now safe, works well and does not cause any electrical problems I can do, I can even dig out the fluke and do IR tests.

Working out exactly what tests to do using a supernova elite however is not lol, this is just not in my field of knowledge.
I would ask about going on the C&G2377 course but I'd be peeing up a very tall wall as no matter what I do the supposed qualified electricians will simply flout all of it, they no longer give a monkeys.
They consider a code of practice as a book of fiction, its not a legal requirement so they would not bother with it.
No one else will want to ensure that the tools are identified, registered like you suggest. As for doing it electronically? pah! pen & paper is all that's available, I even have to provide my own book lol
I do have a roll of barcode stickers that the supernova will identify with its scanner, but they will likely not last long in the harsh environment or moronic welders and polishers who don't care a jot about their tools.
And this lack of giving a toss for their tools is why I want to be able to make 100% that they are safe when I have finished with them rather than just throw them in the "old grinders for spare parts" box

 

[ericmark]

Been there, and know what you mean. For standard in-service inspection and testing of class II electrical equipment it is 95% visible inspection, only test is does it work, no need for a machine to do that.

However after repair errors is screw length can be made, so some want to flash test repaired items to test to ensure no screw has gone in too far and touched a live part.

However the flash test can do so much damage, it is only really done when you think necessary. It is so easy to make an error, I will relate an example.

The equipment was a mag mount RotaBroach, the drill was clearly marked class II, however the mag mount base was class I, the drill was hard wired into the mag mount base to which it was bolted, it was tested every 6 months, and it took 2 years before some one realised it was class I, and the earth wire had not been connected it would seem for a very long time.

I hate class I on a building site, it only takes one welder not to connect his earth well and you fry the earth wire, and often no RCD protection with reduced low voltage, and loads of supply extensions with silly yellow brick transformers which should be banned, so 10A trip on incoming supply to transformer, so line to earth current on outlet needs to be 230V x 10A = 2300W / 55V = 41.8A before the trip will activate, and 1.5 mm² cable does not like that current, so with any extension leads, or class I you have to open up to see if cable is OK, no meter can show the damage, it is down to visual inspection.

Now time how long to use a pat tester on automatic test sequence and it can take 5 minutes for it to go through it all and remove and refit plug, that's just 12 items per hour, so if you really go for it, may just about get 100 per day. So when you see some one has tested 250 in a day, it is clear they are going around with a reel of labels with pre-printed numbers and each item gets just a quick glance to see if OK.

Clearly to get these numbers they must have loads of class II and a tester that does not do a self check every time plugged in, and there are some battery powered testers. The Robin SmartPAT 5500 when I was doing PAT testing was one of the most expensive units, however very slow, and as a manager one has to ask when you get some one submitting 250 PAT tests a day should you say at that speed some one is cheating. My purely manual one is far faster.

 

[SimonH2]

... only test is does it work, no need for a machine to do that.

Should there not be an IR test between supply (L&N combined) and the very obvious and exposed lump of metal sticking out the end - aka the shaft the disk mounts on ?

 

[ericmark]

Should there not be an IR test between supply (L&N combined) and the very obvious and exposed lump of metal sticking out the end - aka the shaft the disk mounts on ?

I am not really sure if on a rebuild after doing a flash test there is really any point with a IR test, however if the flash test has been omitted then yes do an IR test.

 

[mattylad]

That test I can easily do, I wouldn't need to find somewhere for the beast of a pat tester to go then.
I can use the Fluke 1664fc instead.

 

[flameport]

I can use the Fluke 1664fc instead.

If the grinder or whatever else is being disassembled, repaired and then reassembled, a flash test is required, typically at 3000V for class II items. It's the same test as done after manufacturing.

 

[mattylad]

"is required" by what?
3000v? what is it that says it should be tested to 3000v?

These are questions not an argument.