Periodic Inspections and Putting it right

[bugsyuk]

Hi all,

I am intending to let out my flat so have had a Periodic Inspection Report carried out by a niceic registered electrician.

I read up online about the reports and the length of time taken seemed to vary. For a two bedroomed flat I was charged £80 and didn't seem to take over 35 minutes. I was expecting longer, although he did test some circuits there was a visual inspection over all.

He wouldn't give a receipt at the time but insisted it would be emailed with the report. Not to mention being without a receipt, i was expecting the report at the end of the testing. Is this normal to have the report several days after?

When on site the tester did say that the consumer unit would require two RCBO's to comply with current regs, as the MEM board is from the early 90's and has no RCD protection at the moment. Which made total sense and as expected. However... now i am chasing his office as we still have no report. His colleague at the 'office mobile' who sounds like his father now says that I have a very complicated electrical layout and TWO new consumer units will be required 'because of complications' which sounds ridiculous... I have already said I just need the report first, and their quote for works can follow later.

I'm starting to feel it just doesn't add up, something I was not expecting from a niceic registered electrician. They contacted me last night to request another visit to the flat:

"Another visit is required by us to your premises and I need more details to enable me to complete my report and give you a quotation for work required. This is due to complexity of your fuse board."

Any advice? Or suggestions for good people in Birmingham city centre for alternative quotes??

 

[Taylortwocities]

Take a step back.

You asked for a Periodic Inspection Report. Personally i would not have paid until I received the report.

If they have done it right, the report will detail any deviations from the current version of wiring regulations. As you have found out, some things have changed since your flat was wired, but regulations are not retrospective so anything that is now a reg (eg RCD's on all circuits) and was not at the time of installation will be coded as 4 (information) and you do not have to do anything about it - unless new electrical work is being done.

The report is usually prepared after the visit as it is 4 pages and quie detailed. It will split any deviations into 4 categories.
That is it.

When you get the report, you can then decide what remedial work should be done. You can then get quotes for remedial work. I would use a different company to do the remedials as it stops folk "making work for themselves".
For a rented property I would expect code 1 and 2s to be sorted.

There is a guide to PIRs here http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

 

[bugsyuk]

Thank you for the reply, its good to know a little more detail about what to expect. And I agree , I should have gotten tough on the payment before report.

I hadn't found that ECS document before, Cheers

 

[Adam_151]

35minutes does sound rather quick to me, sounds to me like it was a visual rather than a periodic

Paperwork does normally take a few days to follow, no least becuase in a NICEIC firm the QS has to countersign it, many contractors also like to produce computerised reports.

Normal procedure is that the report is sent with the invoice for the job, together with prices for remedial works if these have been requested. The client then sends a cheque via return of post.

 

[JohnW2]

When you get the report, you can then decide what remedial work should be done. You can then get quotes for remedial work. I would use a different company to do the remedials as it stops folk "making work for themselves".
For a rented property I would expect code 1 and 2s to be sorted.

That all makes good sense. However, if it transpires that fairly major work is required/advisable, what is likely to happen when one asks for quotes from others? We very often see it being said here that almost any decent/competant electrician would want to do a PIR/EICR prior to major work (such as a CU change) - would those quoting for the job accept the recent PIR as achieving that, or would they want to do their own (presumably as the customer's epense, one way or anothet)?

The other issue is that (as illustrated in a recent thread) unless/until the industry gets its house in order, one unfortunately cannot necessarily be confident about what is reported in a PIR. In that recent thread, we saw a string of Code 2s reported, none of which anyone here thought should be Code 2s. If a PIR suggests major work is required, one therefore wonders whether a customer should trust a single PIR - although it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that they should have to get 2 or 3 done, because the reports of 'qualified electricians' cannot necessarily be trusted.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Adam_151]

That all makes good sense. However, if it transpires that fairly major work is required/advisable, what is likely to happen when one asks for quotes from others? We very often see it being said here that almost any decent/competant electrician would want to do a PIR/EICR prior to major work (such as a CU change) - would those quoting for the job accept the recent PIR as achieving that, or would they want to do their own (presumably as the customer's epense, one way or anothet)?

You can normally get a good feeling of how much you 'trust' the PIR after having a brief read through.

A common one is if a largish distboard in commericial has every circuit down as >1000meg*, etc, thats a clear indication that the test hasn't actually been done!, or if there is a figure in L-N for lighting circuits when it would be a PITA to remove all the fittings

 

[JohnW2]

You can normally get a good feeling of how much you 'trust' the PIR after having a brief read through.

Yes, I'm sure that's often the case. However, one of the problems with 'cowboys' is that some of them are very clever at appearing very credible - so they might know exactly how to write a PIR which gives you a good feeling, regardless of what tests they have and haven't done, and how well they've done them!

Are you saying that if you were presented with a recent PIR which you felt you could 'trust', you would be happy to go ahead with, say, a CU change without effectively (or literally) doing a PIR of your own?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Adam_151]

Are you saying that if you were presented with a recent PIR which you felt you could 'trust', you would be happy to go ahead with, say, a CU change without effectively (or literally) doing a PIR of your own?

I'd have gone and looked at the items highlighted on the report before doing the CU change, as I would have to work out any materials required, I'd also see if they matched up with report and if I saw anything else while walking around that had been missed. If the report said every circuit was ok IR was, I'd do a global IR to confirm and I'd probably pop a stairs switch off and make sure there was no borrowed neutral chesnut.

Effectily I guess I'd have done a brief visual to check wither it agreed with the findings of the PIR

 

[Electrifying]

Hi all,

I am intending to let out my flat so have had a Periodic Inspection Report carried out by a niceic registered electrician.

I read up online about the reports and the length of time taken seemed to vary. For a two bedroomed flat I was charged £80 and didn't seem to take over 35 minutes. I was expecting longer, although he did test some circuits there was a visual inspection over all.

He wouldn't give a receipt at the time but insisted it would be emailed with the report. Not to mention being without a receipt, i was expecting the report at the end of the testing. Is this normal to have the report several days after?

When on site the tester did say that the consumer unit would require two RCBO's to comply with current regs, as the MEM board is from the early 90's and has no RCD protection at the moment. Which made total sense and as expected. However... now i am chasing his office as we still have no report. His colleague at the 'office mobile' who sounds like his father now says that I have a very complicated electrical layout and TWO new consumer units will be required 'because of complications' which sounds ridiculous... I have already said I just need the report first, and their quote for works can follow later.

I'm starting to feel it just doesn't add up, something I was not expecting from a niceic registered electrician. They contacted me last night to request another visit to the flat:

"Another visit is required by us to your premises and I need more details to enable me to complete my report and give you a quotation for work required. This is due to complexity of your fuse board."

Any advice? Or suggestions for good people in Birmingham city centre for alternative quotes??

As in all walks of life - there are good and bad.

Some people will do as little as possible for as much money as they can extort.

For an idea of how it should have worked - I did one last week for a woman selling her house -

When asking me for a price, she mentioned a couple of things that she knew about - 2 double sockets cracked and a query as to bonding of a radiator in a bathroom.

I told her I'd do the report and repair the known faults and gave her my price.
I also told her, (to instill confidence), that if there was anything minor (e.g. sleeving, two-colour label etc), I'd repair it as I went around......this isn't standard procedure, I did it as a favour so she didn't end up with a report covered in Code 4s and worrying the prospective buyer.

It's all about approach and attitude, you see - with my offer of repairing a couple of minor things at no extra cost, I would be almost guaranteed any larger remedial work that was required...because I'd gained a level of trust as not ripping the customer off.

I then told her that I didn't require payment until I called back in a couple of days time with the 'printed' report.

In your situation it's completely the opposite - you've just been unlucky - how a 35 minute inspection determines that you now require two consumer units in a two bedroom flat is beyond me....what are you having, one in each bedroom??
You asked for a report on your electrical installation - there's no way you should have paid anything until you had that report in your hand - then, if anything needed doing, you could have invited the contractor to quote for the works.

P.S The report I did was satisfactory and the woman was pleased with the detailed report - she said she will be contacting me once she's in her new place to see what needs doing.

 

[ericmark]

My son and I were asked to go to a hotel and quote for remedial work shown in a PIR.

But the report only gave the numbers 1 to 4 with no explanation as to why it had been given the code and we could not find most of the faults which would have been given those codes.

We came to the conclusion that the company was using the Electrical installation condition report (PIR) as a way to get more work. However it is hard to say there is nothing wrong when you have no idea as to what the inspector found. He may have seen something you have missed, he could for all you know have a fibre optic camera and poked it into the hole in a ceiling rose and found rodent damage. Although unlikely.

I remembered a report about a death due to a fault on a central heating boiler and the big thing made by the judge about other peoples reports and why it was not followed up. And I felt uneasy at saying there was nothing wrong after some one else had condemned the circuit.

Lucky they wanted it done super quick and with just two of us we could not complete in the time required so we were able to back heal the job.

I do know the firm you did the PIR were black listed by the hotel and they never got any more work from them. But the only way would have been to do a new PIR starting from scratch.

But except for sole traders how one can judge how good or bad the worker is before the job is very hard. What one wants with a PIR is no code 1 or 2.

Remember there is no longer a code 3 or 4 but C3.

Old PIR Code 1- Requires Urgent Attention changes to Code C1- Danger Present
Old PIR Code 2- Requires Improvement changes to Code C2- Potentially Dangerous
Old PIR Code 3- Requires further investigation changes to Code C3- Improvement

How requires further investigation changes to Code C3 - Improvement, I don't know? To me code 3 was for when there was a lock or seal on something that should be reported, or it would require carpets lifting to find a JB. Which of course once found may be A1 requiring no improvement. I would have said Old PIR Code 4 changes to Code C3.

Now the ESC best practice guide says for an extension lead running through a doorway you should give code C2. See page 17. So if you do and the owner unplugs the extension lead what then. When I want to school extension leads were part of the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment not the Electrical installation condition report. It was when I went to school not considered as part of the installation!

Having a voltage ELCB is a code C2 but not having a RCD attracts no code. Any wonder that electricians get the coding wrong when the ESC best practice guide says things like that! OK I know it means code C2 where a ELCB-v is used with a TT circuit but that's not what it says. And again I know with the extension lead it means where it's being used as a permanent installation but again it's not what it says.

 

[Adam_151]

Now the ESC best practice guide says for an extension lead running through a doorway you should give code C2. See page 17. So if you do and the owner unplugs the extension lead what then. When I want to school extension leads were part of the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment not the Electrical installation condition report. It was when I went to school not considered as part of the installation!

thing is eric, the extension leads themselves are not part of the PIR, however the suitability of the installation for the purpose it is being put is... So if you see the building cartaker using an extension lead for his drill because the lead will not reach to the job site and is trailing across the door, then thats not a PIR issue, its a risk assessment not done issue!. But if you see a computer lab thats all run off a load of daisy chained 4gangs then the installation is not fit for purpose (you would also note the need for HIE). Or if you see a load of equipment on a bench and no sockets, so someone has drilled the leads through to the room next door, then again, insufficent sockets. Thats why GN3 recommends a PIR on change of use, you are assessing not only "is this installation in good condition" but also "Is this installation fit for the purpose to which it is being put"

And the hotel PIR, how do you mean a lack of descripion, was it just "In corner of main lobby - code 2" which I isn't right

Or was it "Main lobby - Socket in corner is damaged/requires replacemet - code 2" - but without adding "This could lead to live parts becomming exposed and presenting shock hazard". Which I can understand as most people understand that a broken socket outlet needs changing for those reasons

 

[JohnW2]

Remember there is no longer a code 3 or 4 but C3. .... I would have said Old PIR Code 4 changes to Code C3.

Talking to electricians, there seem to be quite varied interpretations of/attitudes towards this.

Some, like you, think the intention is that most, perhaps all, old Code 4 items should become C3. Others feel that the intention is that many of the minor old Code 4 things should now not be coded at all. Either way, I can't help but think that the change is probably 'unhelpful', to say the least. Maybe a lot of those old Code 4 things should be dealt with as 'comments/observations', without any Code (effectively 'Code 4 in disguise'!!)?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Please remember that there is no requirement to start using the new EICR until January 1st 2012.

Inspections done now will be the old familiar PIR. Also I heard that a number of the scheme operators are advising their members not to use the new EICR until the first amendment is done...

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[JohnW2]

Please remember that there is no requirement to start using the new EICR until January 1st 2012.

True - but for many people that's less than 30 'workiong days' away, so it's probably time they started thinking about it!

Kind Regards, John.