Perm on ceiling light, power switches not working

[Draked]

Hi I recently bought a couple of ceiling lights from ikea (lock is the model name).

I installed one in my hallway which works perfectly but then tried to install one on my landing and it is permanently on, the switches don't turn it off.

The main difference being that the landing light has two switches one downstairs and one upstairs.

The wiring is a bit confusing there is a brown wire and a red wire (I assumed both to be live) and three black wires one of which is made up of only a single thread (so assumed the single thread to be the earth and the other two to be the neutrals).

I have now tried what I feel is all of the combos with the wire i.e just the red and black = perm on, just brown and black = nothing and even tried the single thread as a neutral red + brown and single thread black = tripped fuse box.

Has anyone got any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Is it that the light does not work with two switches or that I'm just wiring it up wrong?

Any help would be hugely appreciated.

 

[EFLImpudence]

//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Lighting-Circuit-layouts

//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:Two-way-lighting

 

[AndyPRK]

It wont be the 2 way switching that is the cause.

A picture of the wiring would help.

Can you describe The brown wire further.

 

[sparkwright]

What do you mean by single 'thread'?

I take it you mean one wire is 'solid', and the others are 'stranded'?

Do the wires emerge from cables?
or
Do the wires emerge from conduit (pipes)?

It may be that your lights don't have an earth connection, or the earth wires are tucked away, or if it's in metal conduit then that forms the earth.

How was it wired up before you started? Presumably you made notes or remembered it all carefully.

Pictures would be ideal here, also a description of what's at the switch.

You ought to get this sorted out immediately, because if you have mixed up a live conductor with an earth connection you could have a dangerous situation.

 

[Draked]

Single thread = just 1 single solid strand of wire but thicker than the other wires.

The wires emerge from a hole in the ceiling and not from one white cable or from a conduit.

I'm pretty sure the earth is the single solid strand as when I attached it to the Neutral it tripped my fuse box.

The previous light was attached in such a way that I had to remove the wires to remove the light and stupidly didn't check the config as I had just wired up the hallway which worked without any problems - but the hallway had only 3 wires live, neutral and earth.

I'm 99% sure that in the previous setup it was red and brown to live, the 2 blacks to neutral and the solid strand to earth. Which is what I did but the light is permanently on.

I have attached some pics of the current config.

Untitled

• Draked
• 23 Mar 2014
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Untitled

• Draked
• 23 Mar 2014
• 1

 

[Draked]

Just to clarify on the pictures.

There are 5 wires coming out of a whole in the ceiling.

1 brown - old looking with a number of strands.
1 red - newer looking with a number of strands.

Both are currently threaded to the live on the light via a junction box.

1 black - old looking and slightly wider than the other wires made up of a number of strands.
1 black - newer looking made up of a number of wires.

I have currently just taped up the older looking black wire.
The newer looking black wire is attached to the Neutral on the light via the junction box.

1 black - single solid strand.
I have just taped up this wire but I am pretty sure it is the earth.

I have tried all sorts of combinations with the above wires but the only one that seems to give power to the light is the newer looking red and black. I.e. I have tried the brown without the red and I have tried the old black without the new black without any success.

Hopefully the above makes sense but it is pretty hard to explain and is really confusing me, I have wired up 6 other lights in my house and all work fine, its just this one on my landing!

 

[AndyPRK]

A bit of a guess.

Move the red and brown pair to the spare terminal on the end.

Connect a spare black wire (one you don't consider to be an earth ) to the lights brown terminal

 

[Draked]

So does the terminal actually distribute the live/ neutral? I just assumed it was a straight through situation similar to twisting the wires together?

 

[AndyPRK]

They just hold the wires there. Obviously connects your house wires to the lights brown/blue though.

 

[AndyPRK]

The house red and brown are probably live all the time hence why the lights stuck on. These are the loop wires and go in the empty terminal.

One of the blacks will be the switched wire and need connecting to the lamps brown wire.

 

[Draked]

What I meant is that a live wire had to be opposite a live wire and a neutral wire had to be opposite to a neutral wire - am I wrong is assuming this?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Are those picture before, or after you horsed around with it?

 

[Draked]

After

 

[AndyPRK]

That's correct but on light circuits one black wire is actually live !

 

[GaryGarden]

Lesson learnt? Next time follow the following steps:
1) Call a qualified electrician.
Or
2) When you encounter wires and you don't know what they are for, refer to step 1.

The reds, browns, black could be anything , DON'T presume.

"I'm pretty sure the earth is the single solid strand as when I attached it to the Neutral it tripped my fuse box."

Sounds like the Black that you think is neutral is a "live" line wire, is it the RCD tripping when you connect this to the presumed Earth?