What would you do if you went to a property and found a TT supply with no earth and no RCD?
An elderly lady lives there on her own. It's minus 6 outside.
An elderly lady lives there on her own. It's minus 6 outside.
PIR/EICR
- Thread starter Simon35
- Start date
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I think you will find its pages 6 and 7 actually - and for my interpretation please read my comments above. Pages 6 and 7 focus on making sure the client is aware of the issues immediately rather than waiting several days before the report is completed. This can be done verbally or issuing a dangerous condition notification. It doesn't say anything about you taking over responsibility for the installation nor having the authority or power to disconnect the supply.
Tell me though oh wise one, having decided that you have a dangerous situation and having explained it to the customer - who promptly tells you thank you I will deal with it - what do you do next?
Well aren't you the lucky one. My experience is different. Especially if the corroded connection is the earth on a TNS say or when there is no distributor's earth. The stock answer is install a TT system because we are not obliged to provide distributor earthing.
No, what you said is you would "make safe whatever". Then you said that you could "only advise". This is a blatant contradiction in terms. Did I not say that I would make safe in one of my posts? I unlike yourself have a conscience and if I had to make safe or rectify as a mater to prevent electrocution I would and I would stick by that stance.
Agreeing is all well and good but if you are incapable of giving your own views and ideas before waiting for someone else to say them first shows to me that you are not very confident in you knowledge and understanding. There for a possible risk carrying out routine electrical work.
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If it didn't have an earth, it wouldn't strictly be TT would it?
Given that it's probably been like that for decades, doing nothing (apart from advising) would not seem to be an unreasonable option. If the Ze/Zs with bonding attached was reasonable, then 'doing nothing' (immediately) would be even more reasonable, even if reliance on service pipes is not 'allowed'. One would, I hope, try to persuade her that something ought to be done, but any suggestion of 'switching off the installation' would (unless there were more to the story than you've mentioned) IMO be well OTT, if not ridiculous!
Kind Regards, John.
[quote="riveralt";p="2293843]
My experience is different. Especially if the corroded connection is the earth on a TNS say or when there is no distributor's earth. The stock answer is install a TT system because we are not obliged to provide distributor earthing.[/quote]
Whilst I can understand a DNO not taking action when there is no earth provided, I fail to see how they can avoid responsibility for an existing defective earth connection forming part of their equipment.
My experience is different. Especially if the corroded connection is the earth on a TNS say or when there is no distributor's earth. The stock answer is install a TT system because we are not obliged to provide distributor earthing.[/quote]
Whilst I can understand a DNO not taking action when there is no earth provided, I fail to see how they can avoid responsibility for an existing defective earth connection forming part of their equipment.
It's just a scenario I made up.
It's an unsafe installation. You have three choices here.
a) isolate to make safe
b) leave it as it is and advise the customer
c) spend time and money bringing the installation up to standard
Ok for the pedants then it's a TT supply and the consumers earth from the MET to the rod has gone open circuit.
It's an unsafe installation. You have three choices here.
a) isolate to make safe
b) leave it as it is and advise the customer
c) spend time and money bringing the installation up to standard
Ok for the pedants then it's a TT supply and the consumers earth from the MET to the rod has gone open circuit.
The argument I've heard mentioned several times is that, since they are under no obligation to provide an earth in the first place, if an earth they have suppied fails, then can then imply declare it to now be a supply for which they don't provide an earth, so that earthing provisions become the responsibility of the consumer. I'd be quite interested to see that argument tested in a court of law!
Kind Regards, John.
best code of practice states;
"where during the course of inspection or testing, a real and immediate danger is found to be present in an installation (from an accessible live conductive part, for example), immediate action will be necessary to make safe before continuing."
That to my understanding says stop the inspection and make safe. with out making safe then there will be no EICR completed.
Whilst I can understand a DNO not taking action when there is no earth provided, I fail to see how they can avoid responsibility for an existing defective earth connection forming part of their equipment.[/quote]
You are correct.
Whilst the DNO are no obliged to provide you with an earth connection, they have a duty to maintain a connection they have supplied.
I don't think any of that alters my reply above - except that if it's just a broken earthing conductor, with a (probably satisfactory) rod already there, one would probably advise her that rectification would cost very little, and urge her to authorise it. Of course, if she were a sufficiently 'sweet' elderly lady, and one was feeling benevolent, one might offer to aborb the cost into that for the EICR!
Kind Regards, John.
Yes, I'm sure that's what it means - but it's intended as guidance to the inspector (to protect the inspector at least as much as anything else), not as a 'threat' to be waved at the owner/user of the installation!
Kind Regards, John
There's still no RCD so it's still dangerous.
Let's say you can't find the rod.
By the way john this scenario wasn't really aimed at you.
Vibro said if he found an unsafe installation he would either isolate or make safe.
What would he do presented with this situation?
Let's say you can't find the rod.
By the way john this scenario wasn't really aimed at you.
Vibro said if he found an unsafe installation he would either isolate or make safe.
What would he do presented with this situation?
Its clearly dangerous as the RCD is required for fault protection. The inspector should make the customer aware of the danger. Hopefully the customer would agree to have the installation put right/safe. If not then the inspector should put it in writing to at least cover himself.
woe, woe, woe John I did not mention or hint to a threat. what I would do is suspend the EICR. I would not say that preventing the very high likely hood of electrocution was a threat.
Right here's a scenario for you;
You call round to carry out an EICR and you walk to where the CU is. You see a child with an insulated and sheathed tail in its hand with the live copper exposed, that has some how came out of the board. would you then just turn round top the customer and say "you'll have to get that sorted" or would you rectify or isolate? I know what I would do and that certainly would not be the "you'll have to get that sorted" option. Does that some how make me an unfit electrician?
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