EICR Fail Codes

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I have been helping my son with an EICR.
The EICR was a "fail" with a number of C2 codes. We got them all fixed them anyway, all worth doing for safety sake, but I wanted to ask for curiosity whether we got the right codes - I was surprised.
1. Missing seal on the supplier fuse. I would have thought that if anything was needed on the day, a tie-wrap would resolve this until the supplier could replace the seal, and this would be a C3 or just a remark.
2. Missing cover from PEN connector block. "Live terminals accessible". I thought PEN did not count as a live terminal, and if I look at my own main fuse, (and a neighbour's) the PEN block is by design open and accessible. So should this get a code at all?
3. Bathroom light not IP rated. The ceiling in question is more than 225cm; but a part (non-conductive) of the fitting was lower than that. So is the fitting classed as in Zone 2, would you give that a C2, C3, or nothing?

Opinions welcome!
 
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1. Not really part of the EICR and not a C2 even if it was.
2. It does not cause a potential danger so again no it would not get C2.
3. All lights have an IP rating even if IP11, but for a bathroom
Installed electrical equipment shall have at least the following degrees of protection:
(i) In zone 0: IPX7
(ii) In zones 1 and 2: IPX4.
So IPX4 means "Protected against water splashes from all directions. Tested for a minimum of 10 minutes with an oscillating spray (limited ingress permitted with no harmful effects)." in real terms most non pendent lights would pass, and you can't really expect the sticker to still be on light years latter.

The problem is it is a personal opinion, the tester does not have to follow any rules, although in real terms if he did not the insurance company would not like it, however unlike a car MOT, the tester can decide himself what is a C2, we would hope he would follow some common publication like Electrical safety council best practice guide but nothing says he must.
 
3. All lights have an IP rating even if IP11, but for a bathroom

Yes, quite so, I was being a bit too brief there.
But nowhere have I found where it says what parts of a fitting need to be in the relevant zone to pass. For example, a pendant outside Zone 2 but with the lampshade hanging down in it. Just for curiosity now - we decided to go safe and fitted IP44.
 
But nowhere have I found where it says what parts of a fitting need to be in the relevant zone to pass.
I think you are looking at it the wrong way round.
If something is in a zone then it must be suitable for that zone.

For example, a pendant outside Zone 2 but with the lampshade hanging down in it.
Therefore it is NOT outside zone 2.
 
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In my old house from day it was built the pendent has been above the bath, no one in their right mind tries to change a bulb while the bath is full of water, and if they did, then having a cover would make no difference they would still remove it.

It has really gone OTT, I can see a light switch inside a bathroom full of water vapour could be a problem, the idea of wearing a hat so you can use it to switch lights on without getting a shock is no longer accepted. But we have every circuit RCD protected, if water does get in it should trip the RCD well before with touch it.

The problem with going OTT no one takes any notice, put a 20 MPH speed limit in a car park and likely people will keep to it, put a 5 MPH speed limit and no one takes any notice of it.

The RCD seems to have produced a lazy fair attitude to electrics, and this it must be safe or it would not be allowed idea. Problem is I have all circuits protected in my house with multi-RCD's well RCBO's and I expect circuits to trip with water ingress, so I see a roof is leaking but don't turn off electrics, where before I would.
 
I think you are looking at it the wrong way round.
If something is in a zone then it must be suitable for that zone.
Therefore it is NOT outside zone 2.

Well that answers the question - but seems strange to me, if only some decorative part ends up in Zone 2.
But would you have coded that C2 or C3?
Asking these questions as someone with an electrical background so some knowledge, but not in domestic wiring regs.
 
Well that answers the question - but seems strange to me, if only some decorative part ends up in Zone 2.
Well, obviously if it is only a decorative part, then it doesn't matter.
I thought you meant the bulb holder (although you did say lampshade).

But would you have coded that C2 or C3?
The bulb holder would be C2, but easily rectified - shorten the cable or change for splash proof fitting.
 
The EICR was a "fail" with a number of C2 codes. ...
1. Missing seal on the supplier fuse. I would have thought that if anything was needed on the day, a tie-wrap would resolve this until the supplier could replace the seal, and this would be a C3 or just a remark.
2. Missing cover from PEN connector block. "Live terminals accessible". I thought PEN did not count as a live terminal, and if I look at my own main fuse, (and a neighbour's) the PEN block is by design open and accessible. So should this get a code at all?
One interesting thing about those two is that they relate to things on the supplier's side of the meter, and therefore are technically not part of the electrical installation which the person commissioning the EICR owns and/or has responsibility for, and I'm therefore not even sure that, strictly speaking, they are within the scope of an EICR. Having said that, it is clearly reasonable that an inspector should at least bring to attention something which is potentially dangerous within the premises, even if it is something which is the supplier's responsibility. I wonder what others think?

That aside, I'm not at all sure that either of those deserve a C2, particularly (1). The seal on the DNO's fuse is primarily there for security, rather than safety and, unless someone 'interferes' with the fuse holder, there is nothing dangerous about the absence of the seal - so I would not personally think it appropriate to say that "urgent remedial action" was required.

(2) is perhaps technically a little more debatable, in that neutral (hence also PEN), as well as Line, is theoretically classified as 'live'. However, it would again seem inappropriate to say that "urgent remedial action" was required since, assuming we are talking about a TN-C-S installation, touching those 'live terminals' would be no more 'dangerous' than touching anything 'earthed' (kitchen appliances, metal light switches etc. etc.) in the premises (which would be electrically connected to the PEN).

Hence, even if those things are considered to be within the scope of the EICR, I cannot personally see that they would deserve more than C3s. However, others might disagree.

Kind Regards, John
 
I agree.

Even if these matters were reported to the supplier/DNO, they might still decide to do nothing.
 
I agree. Even if these matters were reported to the supplier/DNO, they might still decide to do nothing.
It's good that we agree - but, if this were an EICR being done on a PRS property, per recent legislation, I wonder what, if the DNO 'decided to do nothing', this would mean in relation to the apparent legal requirement that any C1/C2s be 'remedied within 28 days' ?!

Kind Regards, John
 
I thought we had agreed that they weren't C1 or C2 nor part of the EICR.
We have - but we know that, in this case, the OP (well, his son) has an EICR on which, rightly or wrongly, both were given C2s.

Had that been done for a landlord (maybe it was?) that would seem to trigger a legal requirement for 'remedy within 28 days' - so, at the very least, I would imagine that this would result in some bureaucratic/legal 'head-scratching', if the only 'person' (DNO) who could do that remedying said that they "had decided not to", wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John
 
I suppose - such is life. Where would you draw the line regarding mistakes?
Mistakes in what - the EICR?

If so, then that's surely the issue we have discussed extensively, and seems to potentially be a big problem. The way the law is written seems to mean that the EICR is 'god', in that anything to which the inspector gives a C1 or C2 is automatically required (by law) to be 'remedied within 28 days', regardless of how wrong/daft the coding may be.

At the very least, one would hope that there would be a simple and effective 'appeals process' in place, but even that would not be very fair, given that many/most landlords would (understandably) not know what codings they should appeal against.

I can think of no simple solution.

Kind Regards, John
 
Mistakes in what - the EICR?
Yes.

If so, then that's surely the issue we have discussed extensively, and seems to potentially be a big problem.
Yes it is, plus people's lack of knowledge.

The way the law is written seems to mean that the EICR is 'god', in that anything to which the inspector gives a C1 or C2 is automatically required (by law) to be 'remedied within 28 days', regardless of how wrong/daft the coding may be.
Well, we only suppose an EICR is what is required because as far as we are concerned, that is all there can be.
How one can put right that which is not wrong is debatable. How is something corrected if the only thing that needs correcting is the 'inspectors' mistake?

At the very least, one would hope that there would be a simple and effective 'appeals process' in place, but even that would not be very fair, given that many/most landlords would (understandably) not know what codings they should appeal against.
Quite.
Just a lot of unnecessary work being done.

Was the legislation really necessary at all?
Unscrupulous landlords will continue to be unscrupulous.

I can think of no simple solution.
Nor I.

Electrically unknowledgeable landlords giving a piece of paper to electrically unknowledgeable tenants that could say anything such that, as with much legislation, it will not really improve anything but just lead to someone - not necessarily the correct someone - to blame when something horrible happens.
 

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