Plumber telling me porkies? Drayton ZA5 dud needs full drain

[jdamnation]

Hello all - first poster here!

We've had issues with our central heating for a while. Basically, it 'sticks' in the on position and doesn't turn off. Previously we would turn the system off, and leave it over night and some how it would come unstuck, but recently this trick has stopped working. It's on all the time!

So we called out a plumber and he told us that the zone valve actuator had gone. It would need replacing.

I asked what this entailed / how much and he did the whole 'tut' and shaky head thing. Would require draining the entire system - 4 hours + parts £500.

There was just something about the way he said it that made me want to double check. I noted down the make of Zone valve (Drayton ZA5) and all of a sudden I found quite a few posts online that seemed to suggest that with this type of actuator - it's simply a matter of flicking a lock and a button and off it comes. No need to do a full drain.

I don't know how long it takes to wire one of these things in but from the diagrams it looks pretty much like a few wires and a screw driver. 30 minutes tops.

So - am I barking up the wrong tree - or is my plumber telling me big fat porkies!?!?

JD

 

[Nige F]

Living in Surrey might have something to do with it . Always get 3 quotes - and preferably use someone who comes personally recommended

 

[jdamnation]

Thanks - but that's not really much help!

I was trying to establish if this plumber is telling the whole truth - if so - then yes it might be a good idea to get a few more quotes for the work.

If he's having me on - then I should probably confront him on the matter.

I thought that someone on here might know - and thus help me get my facts right.

JD

 

[Agile]

It seems that you have managed to get someone to come and diagnose the problem for free. Then he tells you a price to complete the repair.

If you then get two others out for free there will have been THREE people's time wasted for no payment and its not surprising that he will have to charge you a lot more. Its your fault!

I dont take part in that nonsence!

I always charge to diagnose the fault ( usually £84 ) Then the cost to complete would be about £120 in your case IF the whole valve needed to be changed. Just £60 if only the head could be replaced on its own which depends on the age of the unit.

As the customer its you who choose who you call and on what basis. But it should be obvious to you that his £500 is a lot more than my £204 or £144. You should be able to understand why.

Tony Glazier

 

[jdamnation]

OK thanks for that - this is the guy that actually built and installed the entire system just a few years ago - which is why I guess he came round and gave a free diagnosis (and on the same day!). We've given his company a lot of money over the last few years.

I have always trusted him in the past and he comes over as a very nice guy - I have never thought to second guess any of the work / bills he has submitted up to now.

I guess I was sort of hoping people on would say that a full re-drain would be required because I don't like the thought of being 'had' by someone that I have trusted - they had come recommended in the past and we had got a number of quotes to install the new system - they were by far the cheapest.

So I guess it might be a case of quote low on install to 'buy the business', and then make it all back on stuff like this!?!?!

I guess all I can do is be frank with him and to ask him to explain why he feels the need for a full drain when (it appears) that you can just replace the motor off without draining.... I guess it could be an honest mistake, but I can't help thinking that as he built it (and has quoted for the replacement part), he really should know if replacing it is a small job or not?

JD

 

[Whitespirit66]

Ring 3 plumbers, and ask them to estimate the cost of changing the ZA5's head. It's a routine job, that doesn't need a drain down. When you choose the one who will do the work, get him to confirm the price on arrival so there's no confusion. This way, he can see the job and know if there are any difficulties.

Don't bother having it out with the original plumber, just get recommendations from friends, relatives or colleagues for someone.

I could do it for quite a bit less, and still make a decent crust. And, that's travelling from Bristol!

 

[Agile]

You dont seem to have taken on board what I have said to you before!

The need to drain depends on the exact model of valve.

If I would charge £204 to come and diagnose the fault, drain the system, supply and fit a new valve and refill then its obviously not a terribly long job. I would allow 2-3 hours and have to supply the new valve.

Your man is quoting a totally unreasonable price compared with what I would have to charge.

Those who work like that with free diagnostic visits have to overcharge because they only get one in three acceptances! Its only to be expected.

Tony

 

[expertgasman]

Did he actually quote for just the actuator? If the valve IS sticking, it is more likely a complete valve required, which will entail a drain down, or bunging the F/E and vent.

Assuming anormal sized system and no problems, I would be about £250 - £300, but I don't give unconditional quotes, I charge for time spent, including the time spent calling out and identifying. But I DON'T waste time drinking coffee etc to bump up charges. In fact I work quicker on day rates than on fixed price jobs. Stupid, but true.

If a client insisted on a fixed price, I would have to build a significant contingency for problems.

Having said that, if I had fitted the complete system a couple of years ago, I would be a lot kinder.

 

[jdamnation]

The need to drain depends on the exact model of valve

Exactly! Which is why I mentioned that it's a Drayton ZA5.

I had read that you did not need to drain the system to change these however this did not tally with what my plumber told me. I don't believe everything I read on the internet so I thought it might be a good idea to ask in a place where people might know - here!

The only reason for posting on this forum was simply to ascertain whether or not this particular model of valve can be removed without a re-drain.

Something which no one appears to be able to give be a straight yes / no answer on!

JD

 

[jdamnation]

Thanks ExpertGasMan.

Is there any way I can tell if it's the actuator / motor or valve?

Perhaps he's not telling me porkies after all - just being a bit expensive!

JD

 

[Agile]

As I recall the design of those valves has changed over the years!

Early ones need to be replaced whole and sys drained.

Later ones have a removable and replaceable head!

Thats why I told you that depending on model.

Just like the 1959 Mini car has no parts which are the same as the 2011 Mini.

I am sorry that you dont want to take my advice.

Just as relevant as your blinkered single question is that in my view his price is totally way too high even if the whole valve needs to be changed. £500 compared with my £204.

But you seem to be fixated with your own single question and unable to see the whole picture.

Every week I have to suffer fools who think they know better than me.

Tony

 

[expertgasman]

You dont seem to have taken on board what I have said to you before!


If I would charge £204 to come and diagnose the fault, drain the system, supply and fit a new valve and refill then its obviously not a terribly long job. I would allow 2-3 hours

does that include your bus fares?

 

[jdamnation]

Ah! Well that would explain it - sorry! What a daft idea - having different designs of parts with the same model number!?!

Do these help they were installed new (I hope) a few years ago....

JD

 

[Agile]

Its based on being in our local area with parking available.

I dont like to do drain downs without significant materials and tools available. Too many things to go wrong.

Part of the pricing is £60 for draining and refilling. But it always surprises me that some people dont even seem to charge extra when draining is needed.

Pricing also assumes I come, diagnose and fix, all on the same visit.

And of course that the client wants the job done quickly at a reasonable price and does not have his own ( erroneous ) views as to whats wrong and how it should be fixed.

Tony

 

[D_Hailsham]

I asked what this entailed / how much and he did the whole 'tut' and shaky head thing. Would require draining the entire system - 4 hours + parts £500.

I had my motorized 3-port valve replaced last year (it was the old type with a non-removable actuator). The total cost - parts (Honeywell valve and a new ball valve in the F/E tank) and labour was about £160. Time taken about 2 hours.