Poor pressure on a megaflo??

[Beans-on-Toast]

After so long this is still questionable



Did Rooney deserve to be sent off..............

 

[Water Systems]

After so long this is still questionable

Did Rooney deserve to be sent off..............

Three of them were hacking at him. Blatter is an arsehole for siding with the ref - well he would wouldn't he.

 

[Water Systems]

Water Systems

GAH bought licensing rights for it, from the inventor. In doing so, it is likely that they acknowledged the value of the inventor's IPR. It is also to be expected that the inventor would exercise his right to set limits and territories to that exploitation.

The inventor has invented sweet FA. It appears he has patented what was going on for years.

People who paid money to him are fools.

Granted there are other ways of cobbling the equipment together,

A derogartory comment: An accumulator and a few valves is hardley cobbling together, no more than fitting an S plan CH system. I notice CH systems don't come in one plug-in box.

but there is no single warrany or support on the solution.

No more than a CH system, with differnt guarantees on many of the components.

If we fit a GAH solution, they stand behind us.

Reliance stand behind their accumulators too.

Nevertheless, I am pleased that what started out as HWCH proposing an accumulator solution, to be roundly rubbished by a number of the regulars (not all of them, to be fair) now has changed into the merits of the solution being accepted, but the argument being solely over the merit of the patent.

Nothing wrong with the solution at all. It is some shark getting a patent on technology that has been is use for years.

I would advise all to ignore the patent - as it is worthless.

.

 

[Softus]

Once again, the word 'con' is being used irresponsibly and on the basis of hearsay. If you write something untrue and slanderous in the public domain (and that includes the internet) you can be sued, so personally I would be more careful in one's choice of words, whoever the target.

Well done simond, you do a passable impression of someone who knows almost nothing about the law regarding defamation.

Firstly, a written comment can be libellous but can't be slanderous; secondly, the posts on this forum represent a collection of opinions, nothing more - we're entitled to express them, and it's not libellous to do so; thirdly, it isn't possible to libel a company.

Normally I'd recommend that you stick to the day job, but your aptitude for that is highly questionable.

Nevertheless, I am pleased that what started out as HWCH proposing an accumulator solution, to be roundly rubbished by a number of the regulars (not all of them, to be fair) now has changed into the merits of the solution being accepted, but the argument being solely over the merit of the patent.

Well then, you're easily pleased. The thing that you say has changed has not changed at all - the discussion has simply moved on in the absence of you declining to provide believable data.

And HWCH didn't propose anything, let alone a solution - you, as an employee acting without overt authority, made a pitiful and fruitless attempt to make a sale without knowing all the facts beforehand.

 

[simond]

Quite right, softus. The correct term should have been defamation. Amazing what you can find on the internet if you want to seem an expert.

I recommended an accumulator. Are you suggesting my figures are not believable? If so, you still do not grasp basic principles. I explained how the accumulator worked, and then backed up my explanation with actual real life results.

Very few respondents here recommend a gas boiler - and are then expected to do a flow rate measurements, give details where the patents are regarding the boiler and be called a con man at the same time.

Regarding making comments on behalf of HWCH, I think you will find that I have the full support of the management.

 

[Softus]

Quite right, softus. The correct term should have been defamation. Amazing what you can find on the internet if you want to seem an expert.

What is even more amazing is that I didn't look anything up, whereas you did and you still got it wrong.

I recommended an accumulator. Are you suggesting my figures are not believable?

I'm not suggesting anything. I stated that that you haven't provided believable data. It lacks credibility, IMHO, because it's incomplete. I'm as entitled to assert that as you are to disagree.

If so, you still do not grasp basic principles.

As per an earlier observation, you believing that I don't grasp is very different to me actually failing to grasp something. I haven't made a single post, on a single topic in the history of my membership on this forum, wherein I've failed to grasp the technical principles of the matter under discussion. That isn't to say that I'm never wrong; sometimes I am, and when it happens I openly admit it. This isn't one of those rare occasions.

I explained how the accumulator worked, and then backed up my explanation with actual real life results.

You certainly gave an explanation.

Very few respondents here recommend a gas boiler - and are then expected to do a flow rate measurements, give details where the patents are regarding the boiler and be called a con man at the same time.

Very few? Are you nuts? Do you mean zero?

Regarding making comments on behalf of HWCH, I think you will find that I have the full support of the management.

I never said that you didn't. However, you joined not as a company representative, but as "simond". In this context any support from HWCH is neither official nor overt. If your employer truly knows how poor an image of the company you're presenting, and yet continues to support your words, then I would start to hold a dim view of the company as well as of you.

 

[ChrisR]

If we suggest a gas boiler we know what the flow rates will be, subject to conditions which we stipulate. Members of the forum have been doing it for years. If someone wants to argue with the suggestion we're all up for it.

We don't need to do 70 installations over 3 years and then still not know a flow rate, having to scurry off to our own bathroom with a bucket to measure one quick. It took members of this forum to point out storage volumes and flow rates.

I recommended an accumulator.

In a way, you did, in

We can fix your Megaflo if the standing pressure is over 1.5 bar.

WHich was rather a stupid thing to say, based on what the OP had said, which pointed to restrictions in distribution pipework; he claims he has 22mm water mains.
There was also some problem possibly with his valves which prevented air gap regeneration.
Your pressure vessel, fix his Megaflo? No, it wouldn't.

You promote a one-trick pony with a patent purportedly protecting it that several people wished to discuss - this IS a discussion forum, not a contributors' business promoting forum. You wouldn't discuss, merely resorting to patronising lectures about how we should respect patents. You disagree with OSO about what this magic patent covers but, wouldn't discuss that either. You're trying to hide behind a paper-thin mystique.

As the matter of the patent HAS been discussed, despite you, it becomes more clear that as first suspected, it has little if any substance. It comes through a company GAH which has disgraced itself with another patent application suitable only for derision. The hype of the patent appears to have suckered you in too.

You don't even have pumps as an option for your customers, so you can hardly pretend to provide an objective engineering service of integrity. You aren't good enough at sums to say what the product you flog can provide. You can only sell an overpriced product based on a cheap marketing stunt.
If that's the way you want to behave on this forum, and earn a living, fine, but you've been rumbled.

 

[simond]

It has been interesting.

The thing that is most illuminating is the way we respondents address each other in this thread and others.

There's a great deal of nastiness and one upmanship-criticism which is a bit of a shock the first time you read it.

My first impression, and my last, is the negative impact members of the general public must get from the sniping and back biting. Which is a shame because none of the trade I deal with would dream of conversing in this manner.

Perhaps this faceless form of communication brings out the worst in us all.

 

[Softus]

We are an installer/maintainer so do not supply the trade or public with materials only.

Non-sequitor alert! AWOOOGAH! AWOOOGAH!

I assumed you were in the trade and would understand this basic premise.

That's not a basic premise, it's a narrow-minded company policy.

I have seen the way some of the respondents on this discussion board work; there have even been instances of testing other people's understanding. I think its called integrity.

You appear to shock rather easily, but the same can't be said of thinking.

We could all compare notes directly on what we get charged for boilers etc but that would be a different thread entirely, and would be down to volumes, rebates etc.

But you're prepared to discuss patents and accumulators, which have nothing to do with the OP's problem, because you smell a possible sale.

There's a great deal of nastiness and one upmanship-criticism which is a bit of a shock the first time you read it.

Did it shock you to read any of the following then?

Contrary to the nonsense written earlier...

...an ignoramus puts in print that I have coned (sic) my customers.

Will someone else explain to this DIYNOT bloke that he is talking cobblers?

You are a chancer and you are out of your depth. Why mislead everyone and lie about your experience?

We are not going to sue you, you buffoon. I suspect you are a man of straw anyway.

But finally...

My first impression, and my last...

Your last? Are you leaving us without answering the questions that I put to you?

Is it that you've decided it's not better to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune? To sleep: perchance to dream? Remember, alas, that in that sleep of death what dreams may come, when we have shuffled off this mortal coil...

 

[Beans-on-Toast]

BRAVO............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[davecon1]

Hello everyone. It seems that I have created a monster through my original post!

I want to thank everyone for their help but the I now have the answer to my poor flow rate and it's because my pipes were plumbed in incorrectly. After getting an excellent plumber in (not those cowboys that put the megaflo in) it turns out that for reasons unknown my mains pipe is only 15mm from the ground floor stopcock to the middle floor and the hot water pipe is 22mm! (I think ChrisR mentioned this). For some strange reason the cold then feeds into a 22mm pipe which which means if you use any other appliance at the same time your flow rate is massively reduced.

I now have to get all the pipework switched over from the kitchen all the way upstairs and hopefully that will be the end of my problem.

It should also be pointed out that I've had the megaflo engineer out 2 times in 6 months to regenerate the air gap (which does make a big difference to the pressure). If it happens 1 more time then they have to replace it.

 

[Softus]

If it happens 1 more time then they have to replace it.

Will you also get a free pizza?

BTW, why didn't you opt for the incredibly expensive and unnecessary accumulator solution?

 

[Water Systems]

Hello Chaps

Now I have measured the flow rate coming into my bath.

I should explain that my flow jug is only calibrated up to 22litres per minute, and if I tried to put it under the tap I would just end up soaking myself and the bathroom.

So in the absence of more sophisticated test gear, my son and I have just timed how long it takes to fill a 12 litre calibrated bucket. Unfortunately, this didn't work very well either, because when the hot and cold tap are on, very little of the water stays in the bucket.

So, for the first draw off of 12 litres we just opened the cold tap to lessen the flow. Time taken to fill bucket (plus some wastage on the rebound) was 14 seconds. This gives a flow rate of around 47 litres per minute.

We then immediately ran off a whole bathful of water, say 120 litres.

Straight away, we then ran the bucket test again, but this time the pressure allowed us to open both the hot and cold taps and control the bucket; the bucket filled up in 9 seconds. Which is 80 litres per minute.

If in the first instance I could have opened the hot and cold taps and held the bucket and got all the water to stay inside (impossible) the flow would definitely have been better than 80 litres.


The pipe run from the accumulator and unvented set up is in 22mm and is 20 metres long from our utility room. The bath taps are Aqualisa Axis lever arm mixer.

The Dualstream has been set up by my chaps to work on 3 bar mains, the pressure gauge on the combi valve confirms the incoming pressure.

Frankly, I knew the flow rate was good and our customers have always been impressed, but I've never actually measured it. The performance has always been too obvious. I'm rather surprised what it achieves, even after a large draw off.

Not bad for filling a bath. Looks like the bets are off!

PS: Unless someone knows better.....

This is a thread from last July - I came in right at the end. I was browsing this thread and and some vital data is missing. What was the accumulator charge pressure? 0.25 bar? 0.5 bar? 1 bar?

With this figure the volume stored in the accumulator can be calculated. Also no time given to fill the 120 litre bath.

 

[Softus]

something incredibly incisive

You're absolutely right - it's very important that these details are published and discussed, and it's well worth resurrecting the topic to do just that.

Well done.

 

[simond]

Unfortunately, like all on site measurements the results are difficult to translate from one installation to another because of external influences.

For instance, I could fill my bath much quicker with the hot and cold taps running flat out, rather than just the hot or cold, because of pipework resistances. So a lukewarm bath would fill quicker at my house but not be representative of real use.

I do not have laboratory conditions in my house and offered to take the trouble of making real-life measurements because of the negative and doubting comments of some participants, and their barracking that I was not supplying figures.

If you want to extrapolate some real test data I suggest you contact GAH, in the same manner that you would ask Vaillant on the performance of their combi at 42 delta T rather than the quoted 35 delta T. Taking measurements at a customer installation would not necessarily be representative.

And talking of figures, much hyperbole has been made in this forum about the relative costs of accumulators from X and Y, I haven't seen much evidence in hard fiscal terms. Someone bought one abroad, but surely you can do better than this?