Poor pressure on a megaflo??

[simond]

As far as I am aware, RCM have a licence for commercial applications, not domestic use.

And yes, it is the same accumulator.

PS: Have any of you tried reverse engineering a Dyson? I remember riding on one once at a funfair. Only cost a quid.

 

[Water Systems]

As far as I am aware, RCM have a licence for commercial applications, not domestic use.

And yes, it is the same accumulator.

So, the RCM accumulator will be cheaper then?

 

[doitall]

As far as I am aware, RCM have a licence for commercial applications, not domestic use.

And yes, it is the same accumulator.

So, the RCM accumulator will be cheaper then?

Yes about 80% cheaper

 

[Water Systems]

As far as I am aware, RCM have a licence for commercial applications, not domestic use.

And yes, it is the same accumulator.

They only sell them. They don't know what it is being installed in.

 

[simond]

So, Doitall, that makes GAH, OSO and RCM all licensing something that you still maintain;

- doesn't work
- needs double the pressure (about 6 bar)

They must have been crazy putting all that money upfront without consulting you first. You could have told them about the time your company sent you out with one for a central heating system.

Obviously the apology is not going to be forthcoming over your earlier posts, which aggresively challenged me whether an accumulator boosts the flow rate.

So perhaps I could request some figures from you.

Where do you get the 'about 80% cheaper' statement from? Where does your comparison come from, and for what?

 

[Softus]

So perhaps I could request some figures from you.

Does your particular brand of integrity allow you to do that? After ignoring (several times) my request for figures from you?

 

[Water Systems]

So, Doitall, that makes GAH, OSO and RCM all licensing something that you still maintain;

- doesn't work
- needs double the pressure (about 6 bar)

They must have been crazy putting all that money upfront without consulting you first.

The must be. Anyone can buy an accumulator from the likes of Reliance and the appropriate controls and pay nobody nothing at all.

The patents don't hold water as far as I can see.

From their web site:

This unique range of accumulators feature a patented controlled action diaphragm with special diffuser to prevent stratification.

So:

1. A controlled action diaphragm - whatever that is
2. A special diffuser to prevent stratification - stratification in a cold water vessel?

Just buy a Reliance or Grundfos accumulator and the controls separately – sorted, and cheaper. The reliance accumulator has a replaceable membrane too. Even if a company packaged an accumulator with controls, as long as they don’t have any of the above two points in the accumulator then no problem.

I have the distinct impression GHA are con-artists…and that any company paying them a licence are fools.

 

[simond]

Softus

We are an installer/maintainer so do not supply the trade or public with materials only. I assumed you were in the trade and would understand this basic premise.

I have seen the way some of the respondents on this discussion board work; there have even been instances of testing other people's understanding. I think its called integrity. If you need to know the price of a GAH product, my advice was and still is to pick up the phone and ask your merchant. Normally merchants are within 20% accuracy of the best/worst price.

We could all compare notes directly on what we get charged for boilers etc but that would be a different thread entirely, and would be down to volumes, rebates etc.

But when someone says they can buy what I know is the same product for 80% less I am always intrigued, and just a little sceptical.

So in this case, I politely request DoItAll to elaborate.

 

[Water Systems]

There is no reason i can see why you couldn't fit an ext expansion vessel to a Megaflo, other than it might alter the approvals legal situation.

OSO cylinders come with a removeable dip tube so you can run them with an ext expansion vessel if you want, with an enlarged storage content. If you use the dip tube air gap the combi valve is set at 2.1 bar (because of the limited exp area), with an external exp vessel 3.5 bar at the combi valve can be specified.

You could add a small accumulator with the Megaflo, Chris. However, there are two potential problems. The first is that unless you fitted a flow restrictor, the small boost would be pushed out in seconds. Secondly, there are licensing conditions in place preventing Megaflo being enhanced by accumulator technology.

Licensing conditions? What? Where? Anyone can bolt an accumulator on anything, and thy have done for years and years. I smell BS here.

 

[ChrisR]

I have the distinct impression GHA are con-artists…

Careful, you're in danger of agreeing with doitall..
cf GAH's preposterous attempt at patenting the balanced flue... roflol is the phrase I think. There's another with 2 heat exchangers.

The quiet pump referred to was a Salamander ESP. The lower head ones are very quiet.

See new antares cat, eg 500 litre Surge Tank £343+.

 

[Water Systems]

The accumulator has been patented in the UK by its inventor. Once granted a patent you have control over the exploitation of your intellectual property, providing the patent has been correctly worded.

The patent prevents unlicensed manufacturers from producing similar products. The licensing of the patent, in this case to GAH, usually involves the application and markets where the products can be sold.

Therefore whilst in principle, those aware of how the technology works can concoct their own hybrid solutions, any of these sold commercially and not approved by the patent holder or licensee will be on dodgy ground.

But accumulators have been made for decades and used to boost water volume for decades. There is nothing special about the GHA accumulator. Anyone can hitch one up to any system. Anyone can market one with controls as a water flow booster too. Anyone can hitch one up to any sort of mains pressure water system.

I would like to see a court rule against anyone doing it - which I doubt would happen as people have been doing this for decades.

 

[Water Systems]

I think inventors of useful solutions should be given credit and allowed to earn a living from their ideas. Have you chaps patented any useful heating solutions recently?

But GHA have invented nothing new at all - they appear to be con-men trying it on. If some companies pay them a licence fee they are silly. The technology was already in the public domain and applied to many types of appliactions for decades.

This is a daft as a patent for the wheel.

 

[Water Systems]

"Water Systems": I have the distinct impression GHA are con-artists…

Careful, you're in danger of agreeing with doitall..

That is a terrible thing to happen to a man. Depressing.

cf GAH's preposterous attempt at patenting the balanced flue... roflol is the phrase I think. There's another with 2 heat exchangers.

This proves they are chancers patenting technology that has been around for decades and not invented by them. Anyone paying them money is a fool. If any of this went to court they would lose. There is just too much evidence that they are chancers by their dishonest attempt at patenting something which was already vox-pop, the balanced flue (laughable), and the court would see this.

A friend is an author. Every time he writes a book letters come in from competitors about plagiarism, etc, etc, and potential court action – some from large multi-million pound publishers too. He ignored the lot and not one has taken him to court - as there was no case. It is all bluff to frighten off people, and some suck it in.

GHA approach cylinder makers about licensing their patented technology and if copied court action, these fools pay up. I doubt they had any legal expert look at the matter.

BTW, I would rarely hitch an accumulator to an unvented cylinder. A thermal store, heat bank or combi? Yes.

Defending accumulators, they could be cost effective up to a point - making up your own with an accumulator and controls can be cost effective vs. cold water tank and a high pressure pump set. Good quality reliable pumps sets are not cheap and they make noises.

 

[Water Systems]

Anyone have any experience of the life of accumulators in operation? Assuming a good make of course.

 

[simond]

Water Systems

Not for the first time in this thread, GAH did NOT patent this design.

Once again, the word 'con' is being used irresponsibly and on the basis of hearsay. If you write something untrue and slanderous in the public domain (and that includes the internet) you can be sued, so personally I would be more careful in one's choice of words, whoever the target.

GAH bought licensing rights for it, from the inventor. In doing so, it is likely that they acknowledged the value of the inventor's IPR. It is also to be expected that the inventor would exercise his right to set limits and territories to that exploitation.

Likewise OSO and RCM.

The notion that lawyers would not have been involved shows some niavity of commercial matters.

We would far prefer to sell our customers a tested and warranted product for the application. Granted there are other ways of cobbling the equipment together, but there is no single warrany or support on the solution. If we fit a GAH solution, they stand behind us.

Nevertheless, I am pleased that what started out as HWCH proposing an accumulator solution, to be roundly rubbished by a number of the regulars (not all of them, to be fair) now has changed into the merits of the solution being accepted, but the argument being solely over the merit of the patent.

Unless someone disagrees?