Powerflush question

[Mike13]

Well I have the pump set to full time 100%, I have the demand temperature set quite low, and I still see hiccups of 68-81C on the default screen. I am not sure what else I can do, the powerflush person is coming back at some point today. I think with the house convoluted piping system he needs to hook onto the pipes very near the end of the 22mm piping, his previous attempt had the large flakes attempting to climb about 2.5 metres. I am not sure they are doing that.

 

[BlueLoo]

Don't understand powerflushing tbh.
Just take the rads off and clean them manually. Same for the pump.
Dump cleaner in the system after refilling and then flush and inhibit. Job oxo.

And remaining crud will find its way to the magnafilter eventually (if ever it would doing the powerflushing).

Effort in = results out. Powerflushing is a con.

 

[Madrab]

I'll get me coat

 

[Mike13]

Just take the rads off and clean them manually. Same for the pump.

Add all the mess that leaves around the house, priceless.

 

[Madrab]

Powerflushing is a con

Couldn't disagree more - in the right setting and done properly then power flushing is a great way to clear out a really troublesome and filthy system, especially the pipework, without having to disassemble everything and throwing in a re-pipe. Sometimes hauling off the rads and manually flushing them, if they're that bad, just isn't practical, advisable nor good for the the carpets

That being said I've found a good cleaner run for a week odds and then a good manual/mains flush can deal with all but the worst of cleaning/flushing jobs, without the need to get a machine attached.

 

[Mike13]

Well the replacement diverter valve lost one of the brass disks that hold the rubber bung in place, where is it likely to have ended up?
It is about 12.5mm across and nearly 2mm thick, and is on the loose in my system somewhere.

 

[BlueLoo]

Couldn't disagree more - in the right setting and done properly then power flushing is a great way to clear out a really troublesome and filthy system, especially the pipework, without having to disassemble everything and throwing in a re-pipe. Sometimes hauling off the rads and manually flushing them, if they're that bad, just isn't practical, advisable nor good for the the carpets

That being said I've found a good cleaner run for a week odds and then a good manual/mains flush can deal with all but the worst of cleaning/flushing jobs, without the need to get a machine attached.

Take a rad off (a old one which would suffer from the affliction requiring powerflushing) and empty its contents into a bucket.

Then tell me how any amount of acid or cleaner can dilute the ****e enough for it to make it worthwhile.

The volume of crud simply isn't worth it usually.

Taking off the rads and pump instantly removes what, 80+%? Of the crap? Then a flush through with the pump and cleaner will shift much more.

Agreed about certain stubborn pipe deposits but you could argue a repipe of those is unavoidable.

 

[oldbuffer]

1. The cleaners aren't necessarily acidic, although some are and require neutralising after use.
2. They are a mixture of detergents and agents which take the particles into suspension.
3. Its not the muck you pour out of the radiator which is important, it's the muck which stays behind.
4. Its the action of forcing water through the radiators and pipes both in the normal direction of flow and the reverse which loosens the solids and takes it into solution / suspension which gets much more out than simple flushing with a hose pipe.
5. In particular it is the reversal of direction which is important, as it loosens deposits in "corners".
6. Not sure where the 80% plus figure comes from. It might be right if a simple mains flush got all the muck out of a radiator / pump but the simple approach doesn't remove 100% of what is there, and it's hard to see how it can be quantified.
7. Even if it were only pipe deposits, a £500 flush is far cheaper generally than a complete re-pipe.

 

[Madrab]

Certainly agree doing a rad of and manual flush can be as effective as a powerflush and it can certainly be an option. Unfortunately it isn't an option all the time and a proper powerflush, one where the tub is individually connected to each rad or series of close run rads, can be highly effective, purely down to the pressure and flow the pump in the tub can generate, that with agitating the rads and flow in both directions. It can also be a lot less intrusive and a loss less messy than dumping a load of black crud into the clients back garden.

Cleaner just gets things into solution and helps loosen everything up, it's the pumped fwd/reverse flow and agitation that moves the crap up and out.

All in all a powerflush, IME, is an effective tool in the arsenal, where and when it's needed and appropriate.

In the OP's circumstances, with a somewhat convoluted layout like that is, a powerflush isn't that bad idea, it just wasn't performed the way it should have been, in fact it seems it wasn't even half of the job that it needed to be. It would never ever work only being run from the garden into the system just from the boiler location.

 

[BlueLoo]

1. The cleaners aren't necessarily acidic, although some are and require neutralising after use.
2. They are a mixture of detergents and agents which take the particles into suspension.
3. Its not the muck you pour out of the radiator which is important, it's the muck which stays behind.
4. Its the action of forcing water through the radiators and pipes both in the normal direction of flow and the reverse which loosens the solids and takes it into solution / suspension which gets much more out than simple flushing with a hose pipe.
5. In particular it is the reversal of direction which is important, as it loosens deposits in "corners".
6. Not sure where the 80% plus figure comes from. It might be right if a simple mains flush got all the muck out of a radiator / pump but the simple approach doesn't remove 100% of what is there, and it's hard to see how it can be quantified.
7. Even if it were only pipe deposits, a £500 flush is far cheaper generally than a complete re-pipe.

Does powerflushing including a rubber mallet?

Take the rads off. Clean pump. Clean tank. Abuse rads in garden with hose pipe and mallet. Rebuild (clean up trvs etc as well). Add cleaner, flush out, inhibitors. Job done.

Do the magnetic thing on the copper pipes as well.

If the system is still choking after that it is probably a full copper system and is so old you need to be careful.

Perhaps then powerflushing may be a final throw of the dice but i think leaving a gentle cleaner in it for a month might be safer.

My point really is that we seem to jump to "powerflushing". Before doing the easy simple bits first.

Saying that, removing rads might be risky if they are really old and corroded but then perhaps you actually should be removing them and cleaning them up making sure they are fit for service.

What's the lifespan of a modern rad?

 

[BlueLoo]

Certainly agree doing a rad of and manual flush can be as effective as a powerflush and it can certainly be an option. Unfortunately it isn't an option all the time and a proper powerflush, one where the tub is individually connected to each rad or series of close run rads, can be highly effective, purely down to the pressure and flow the pump in the tub can generate, that with agitating the rads and flow in both directions. It can also be a lot less intrusive and a loss less messy than dumping a load of black crud into the clients back garden.

Cleaner just gets things into solution and helps loosen everything up, it's the pumped fwd/reverse flow and agitation that moves the crap up and out.

All in all a powerflush, IME, is an effective tool in the arsenal, where and when it's needed and appropriate.

In the OP's circumstances, with a somewhat convoluted layout like that is, a powerflush isn't that bad idea, it just wasn't performed the way it should have been, in fact it seems it wasn't even half of the job that it needed to be. It would never ever work only being run from the garden into the system just from the boiler location.

I'm allergic to powerflushing because of the cost quotes as well.

Removing the rads etc and a bit of elbow grease is cheap. Two bottles of cleaner and inhibitor is 30£?.

I was quoted 600£ for a powerflush on my system. Nothing fancy either.

 

[Notch7]

Take a rad off (a old one which would suffer from the affliction requiring powerflushing) and empty its contents into a bucket.

Then tell me how any amount of acid or cleaner can dilute the ****e enough for it to make it worthwhile.

The volume of crud simply isn't worth it usually.

Taking off the rads and pump instantly removes what, 80+%? Of the crap? Then a flush through with the pump and cleaner will shift much more.

Agreed about certain stubborn pipe deposits but you could argue a repipe of those is unavoidable.

That might be a good route for a DIYer, I can’t see it making any sense for a professional.

My guess is that the sludge that you would get out of a radiator by tipping it in a bucket would come out with powerflush (esp if pre dosed with X400 or similar week before)

to get most of the gunk out the radiators need agitating (I used an SDS drill) - I’m not sure if it matters whether the radiator is still in the system or not.


On my old system I found the rad tails had over tightened olives and the lock shield gland hadn’t been moved for years….so removing the rads created leaks.

 

[Mike13]

In the plumbers favour the pump was only about 6 feet away from the boiler, and it did connect using the existing magnetic trap fittings

 

[Mike13]

All this derailing of whether a powerflush works...
I still need an opinion on where the missing brass collar from the diverter valve might end up? some you might even have had to replace other parts on vaillants.


Well the replacement diverter valve lost one of the brass disks that hold the rubber bung in place, where is it likely to have ended up?
It is about 12.5mm across and nearly 2mm thick, and is on the loose in my system somewhere.

 

[BlueLoo]

Well the replacement diverter valve lost one of the brass disks that hold the rubber bung in place, where is it likely to have ended up?
It is about 12.5mm across and nearly 2mm thick, and is on the loose in my system somewhere.

Probably resting on the first elbow in the system that is pointing up, or it's moved to the system low point.

I would reverse flow towards the point it entered but leaving the entry point open.