Problem in Oil Pipe To Tank.

[Burnerman]

Hello Kenny
I have an early (1999) Worcester 12/14 Heatslave oil fired combi.
On that one, the heatslave tank for domestic water is always kept hot and ready for use.....I actually find this rather good because the system can actually supply 2 showers at the same time, which a 'normal' combi could have problems with. There isn't any way of altering this, its part of the heatslave system.
The heatslave tank is well insulated, and the boiler doesn't cut in often to keep it hot so I think this is actually a saving at the end of the day.
The only moan I have with it is that a flow switch always tries to start up the burner, even if only a pint of water is drawn off - this I can live with!
This boiler is a non condensing type. Yours is, but this has no relevance to the heatslave system.
Regards
John

 

[boozercruiser]

Hello Kenny
I have an early (1999) Worcester 12/14 Heatslave oil fired combi.
On that one, the heatslave tank for domestic water is always kept hot and ready for use.....I actually find this rather good because the system can actually supply 2 showers at the same time, which a 'normal' combi could have problems with. There isn't any way of altering this, its part of the heatslave system.
The heatslave tank is well insulated, and the boiler doesn't cut in often to keep it hot so I think this is actually a saving at the end of the day.
The only moan I have with it is that a flow switch always tries to start up the burner, even if only a pint of water is drawn off - this I can live with!
This boiler is a non condensing type. Yours is, but this has no relevance to the heatslave system.
Regards
John

Hello John and it is nice to see you giving me your very reasoned and reasonable assessment of my 'moan'. And you DO make me feel a bit better about it!

However, I cannot help but be miffed about this particular characteristic in all ? Condensing Boilers. My answer to the question "Are all condensing Boilers like this" is cut and pated below from another post I have on this lovely Forum.....


Terrywookfit wrote:
All oil fired combi boilers operate this way.
It is not possible to have a low water content heat exchanger and modulating burner with oil.
Therefore a buffer tank is heated to transfer the heat via a plate heat exchanger when demanded.


O.K. Terrywookfit and than you for answering quickly and straight to the point with a simple easy to understand answer.

I sort of new the basic as per your explanation but did not know if this applied to all condensing boilers, irrespective of make.

To me then, this is just one more reason why condensing boilers should be avoided at all costs......if one can.....which is difficult because of the likes of John Prescott and useless EU laws which pander to the Carbon Emissions Save The planet (I respect the point of view though) Crowd.

Though a Boiler which is designed to keep the Hot Water tank full of Hot Water if one wants it or not flies in the face of that particular aim.

I mean, the Wife and I go on holidays during the Winter and leave the heating on a target temperature of 12 degrees. So invariably the heating comes on while we are away....and of course....the lovely 10 to 15 gallons of Hot Water the tank holds is continually being provided as well!

The same can happen overnight after leaving the Target Temp. of 12 Degrees.

This practice not only puts extra usage on the boiler but an extra strain on my pocket with the price of oil nowadays.

Regards

Kenny Thain

 

[Burnerman]

Good evening Kenny
I think your issue is with the heatslave system, and not the fact that the boiler is a condensing one.....after all, we are stuck with condensers now, and they sure seem to extract as much heat from the fuel as possible.
As with others, my own issue with condensers is the possibility of the condensate freezing, but we have to sort out that issue ourselves courtesy of a good installation.
Maybe the fact that the boiler is an oil fired appliance (and therefore has no ability to modulate as you cant turn a pressure jet flame down) has something to do with it - regarding the storage of hot water whether we want it or not.... that looks like thats as far as we can go!
Regards
John

 

[londonboy]

As John has said above, the problem is not CONDENSING boilers, it is in fact COMBINATION boilers.

Im so fed up of 7 pages of rubbish, YOU should have check this before YOU employed someone to fit this in YOUR house.

Im buying a new car tomorrow... dunno what car it is, the dealer is telling me what I'm gonna buy

 

[boozercruiser]

As John has said above, the problem is not CONDENSING boilers, it is in fact COMBINATION boilers.

Im so fed up of 7 pages of rubbish, YOU should have check this before YOU employed someone to fit this in YOUR house.

Im buying a new car tomorrow... dunno what car it is, the dealer is telling me what I'm gonna buy

Oh! Dear Oh! Dear. Now then folks above us we have Burnerman who right from the start of my having a CONDENSING COMBINATION BOILER (Title taken from the front of my Instruction Manual) which had broken down, arguably because of a defective pump on the Boiler or a problem in the Oil Line trying to help and give advice without the need of a rant.

In fact it was THAT help and advice which helped me tackle Worcester and get them to come out and fix the problem, for which I thank them profusely.

On the other end of the Spectrum we have Londonboy here who thinks that the whole post and thread is a load of rubbish. We are also obviously in the presence of someone who has never made a bad purchase in either goods or services and who's every decision is the right one.

God. please give me the gift that Londonboy has because I do envy him!

If you think that M8...why come here and view the post? (obviously all seven pages of it!) ....

By saying that this post is 7 pages of rubbish Londonboy has in my opinion insulted everyone who has added to the post.

Call whatever I have said "Rubbish" if you like M8, arguably it is....
but do you not think you owe an apololgy to everyone else?

I think that I am right in saying that if one wants a new Oil Boiler.......

(I already had an 2,600 Litres Oil Tank....AND...because I was replacing the old type Oil Boiler...AND.....because I live in a Rural Village in Wales....I cannot have GAS)......

.....then CONDENSING Boilers where the only choice, and COMBINATION made sense.

Check up with John Prescott and EU Law will you please Chum

So what choice my Bum?!

I checked around and had the Boiler installed by what I thought was a reputable OFTEC installer and picked what I thought, and still think was a reputable Boiler Company and Boiler in Worcester.

I don't profess to know a lot about CONDENSING COMBINATION BOILERS.

But with all due respect, I have my doubts about you also my friend in view of your sarcastic comments.

Cheers.

Regards

Kenny Thain.

 

[boozercruiser]

Good evening Kenny
I think your issue is with the heatslave system, and not the fact that the boiler is a condensing one.....after all, we are stuck with condensers now, and they sure seem to extract as much heat from the fuel as possible.
As with others, my own issue with condensers is the possibility of the condensate freezing, but we have to sort out that issue ourselves courtesy of a good installation.
Maybe the fact that the boiler is an oil fired appliance (and therefore has no ability to modulate as you cant turn a pressure jet flame down) has something to do with it - regarding the storage of hot water whether we want it or not.... that looks like thats as far as we can go!
Regards
John

John....Thank you once again for some more constructive information which helps me understand a little bit more what is going on in respect of CONDENSING Boilers and why.

This subject is quite a big one and unlike you and many other who contribute here trying to help, who have served an apprentiship and have lots of years at the 'coal face' so to speak..................................

........However, ME...I know very little.

Some people, and certainly your good self have made allowances for that.

Thank You.

However, one or two others have not!

Regards

Kenny Thain.

P.S. John...your mention of good installation can help avoid problems, particularly in respect of the Condensate Trap freezing.

I have uploaded photos of my Condensate Trap to an Album with that title.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Well, I unfortunately obviously had a poor installation.

 

[boozercruiser]

Ah! well...another day when my Worcester 18/25 Boiler has failed to work. No Heating or Hot Water
The boiler was working most of Saturday 19th March 2011 and then I noticed the room temperature was going down, so looked at the Boiler.

Both Heating and Hot Water lights whereand are still showing showing ON and unusually the Lock Out light had not come on (Which usually happens when there is a problem with my Boiler.

I have turned the power off a couple of times and back on with no movement from the Boiler.

I have checked the Water Pressure and the bar reading is as usual on about 8 black unite on both the boiler and small holdinput tank (just under 1 bar).

Any thoughts would be as usual most appreciated guys.

 

[casius66]

Have you checked whether the high limit stat has tripped?

 

[Burnerman]

Hello again Kenny
As per Casius' post above - if the burner lock out lamp isn't on, then the system isn't calling for heat, really.
So, there's the room thermostat to consider, followed by the high limit stat (usually only manuallly resettable) and there may be other water stats, the phials of which are plugged into the water jacket area somewhere. These stats are usually only 2 wire connection, and are therefore easy enough to override.
John

 

[boozercruiser]

Hello again Kenny
As per Casius' post above - if the burner lock out lamp isn't on, then the system isn't calling for heat, really.
So, there's the room thermostat to consider, followed by the high limit stat (usually only manuallly resettable) and there may be other water stats, the phials of which are plugged into the water jacket area somewhere. These stats are usually only 2 wire connection, and are therefore easy enough to override.
John

Hi Burnerman and Cassius66. I have been out all day so this is my first chance to reply to your fast response to my plea for help.

I didn't really know what the 'High Limit Stat' reference was but I took the front off the Boiler front and had a look for a press switch inside.
Practicaly hidden there was a little red plug to press which is what I did and lovely..the Boiler sprung into action.

Thank you so much for your very quick advice. I was dreading the thought of contacting Worcester on Monday for a call out.

Any thoughts on why it tripped though guys?

By the way.....I want to put some fernox into the system. I have posted a picture of the small red holding tank as per picture placed in the 'Boiler Heat Exchanger' album. Is this where I can put the Fernox in Guys.
Any further advice gratefully received.

 

[Burnerman]

Good evening Kenny - I'm pleased that you are both (presumably) warm again!
The overheat stats trip because the water generated by the boiler is so hot, or in such great a volume, that it is difficult for your system to disperse. On a perfect system this doesn't happen as the boiler bypass loop simply allows water to circulate, courtesy of the pump, until the boiler is cool enough to switch off on its own.
So - and only in my limited experience - this is due to too many TRV's turned down on the rads, the thermostat being turned up too high on the boiler (C/H water side), the bypass valve not allowing enough water to bypass, or the pump simply not commanded to run for long enough once the burner has shut off. On one system I looked at, I had to mechanically fix one of the two motorised valves (C/H one) in the 'on' position to allow the boiler to disperse its heat. I'm convinced this was a system design fault though.
In your case, I'd crack the boiler stat down a bit and keep the rad valves open...indeed there could be one radiator on your system that shouldn't be turned off at all....this perhaps being the bypass one, often in the bathroom. See what happens if you do this. Personally I've had very few phial type stats fail, but they can start to operate outside of their perameters, I find, and become inaccurate.
Regarding the Fernox treatment - I use Fernox F1 concentrate which is in a tube as a gel. (Around £25). You can add this stuff either through a radiator bleed valve or the filling loop (both adaptors come in the boxed kit) but obviously the C/H side must be completely depressurised. When you pump this stuff in, its best to have a rad bleed valve open to allow the increase in pressure to escape, obviously.
The red vessels shown are expansion vessels (E.V's) and have water on one side, and air on the other - hence the schrader tyre type valve.
Pump the stuff in slowly (I've had 2 occasions where the gel was forced back up the tube and down my leg when I went too quick) and repressurise the system afterwards to the recommended pressure.
Its a good idea to check the air pressure in the EV's at this time - an average pressure is 10 psi with no water pressure in the system. Air can be pumped in with a car tyre pump.
An ordinary sealant gun is used to pump the stuff in.
Hope this helps, and good evening!
John

 

[boozercruiser]

Good evening Kenny - I'm pleased that you are both (presumably) warm again!
The overheat stats trip because the water generated by the boiler is so hot, or in such great a volume, that it is difficult for your system to disperse. On a perfect system this doesn't happen as the boiler bypass loop simply allows water to circulate, courtesy of the pump, until the boiler is cool enough to switch off on its own.
So - and only in my limited experience - this is due to too many TRV's turned down on the rads, the thermostat being turned up too high on the boiler (C/H water side), the bypass valve not allowing enough water to bypass, or the pump simply not commanded to run for long enough once the burner has shut off. On one system I looked at, I had to mechanically fix one of the two motorised valves (C/H one) in the 'on' position to allow the boiler to disperse its heat. I'm convinced this was a system design fault though.
In your case, I'd crack the boiler stat down a bit and keep the rad valves open...indeed there could be one radiator on your system that shouldn't be turned off at all....this perhaps being the bypass one, often in the bathroom. See what happens if you do this. Personally I've had very few phial type stats fail, but they can start to operate outside of their perameters, I find, and become inaccurate.
Regarding the Fernox treatment - I use Fernox F1 concentrate which is in a tube as a gel. (Around £25). You can add this stuff either through a radiator bleed valve or the filling loop (both adaptors come in the boxed kit) but obviously the C/H side must be completely depressurised. When you pump this stuff in, its best to have a rad bleed valve open to allow the increase in pressure to escape, obviously.
The red vessels shown are expansion vessels (E.V's) and have water on one side, and air on the other - hence the schrader tyre type valve.
Pump the stuff in slowly (I've had 2 occasions where the gel was forced back up the tube and down my leg when I went too quick) and repressurise the system afterwards to the recommended pressure.
Its a good idea to check the air pressure in the EV's at this time - an average pressure is 10 psi with no water pressure in the system. Air can be pumped in with a car tyre pump.
An ordinary sealant gun is used to pump the stuff in.
Hope this helps, and good evening!
John

Blimey John..thank you for this very quick and usefull advice.What a really nice Man you are.

"this is due to too many TRV's turned down on the rads, the thermostat being turned up too high on the boiler (C/H water side), the bypass valve not allowing enough water to bypass, or the pump simply not commanded to run for long enough once the burner has shut off.

You could have a point there as we tend to have only the two rads in the living room open and on permenantly full (Out of 14 Rads total) The other rads are either on Frostsat or between that and full (five) dpending on use.
So I need to be carefull on that.
Funny you said about the one that shouldn't be turned off....

"In your case, I'd crack the boiler stat down a bit and keep the rad valves open...indeed there could be one radiator on your system that shouldn't be turned off at all....this perhaps being the bypass one, often in the bathroom."

...... pipe being in the Bathroom as I want to take the Radiator off as I am tiling.

Perhaps I can put Fernox in the system then?

Thanks once again for your ongoing help, and best regards to you John

P.S. your comment..."the thermostat being turned up too high on the boiler (C/H water side), "

We always have that turned down to lowest setting, because as I think I have said on this Forum.. our Hot Water is generally speaking too hot anyway.

Read more: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1937053#1937053#ixzz1HAdvTYwu

 

[Burnerman]

With a radiator removed, this is an ideal time to add the inhibitor - just allow air to escape as the Fernox is pushed in. Its probably better to do this when the radiator is reconnected but not yet filled - dead easy if there is a bleed valve in one end and a blanking plug in the other.
Prepare for leaking rad valves if they haven't moved for a while....the quality of them is just ghastly! Easy enough to change on a combi system though.
Its a good move to flush the radiator through immediately you remove it - there is sure to be some black magnetite floating around the bottom of it and you don't want that to solidify.
If your boiler C/H stat is turned down low, I wouldn't expect the rads to be bouncing hot....however as an oil boiler doesn't modulate and most of the other rads are off they may still be very hot to touch.
I've noticed on my holiday cottage system (Worcester 12/14 combi) if the rad TRV's are turned down the pump makes itself heard so I tend to keep them open. I intend to fit a room stat very soon - for some reason there isn't one - and I've no idea about the bypass system either. Oh the joys of inheriting someone elses work!!
Regards
John

 

[boozercruiser]

With a radiator removed, this is an ideal time to add the inhibitor - just allow air to escape as the Fernox is pushed in. Its probably better to do this when the radiator is reconnected but not yet filled - dead easy if there is a bleed valve in one end and a blanking plug in the other.
Prepare for leaking rad valves if they haven't moved for a while....the quality of them is just ghastly! Easy enough to change on a combi system though.
Its a good move to flush the radiator through immediately you remove it - there is sure to be some black magnetite floating around the bottom of it and you don't want that to solidify.
If your boiler C/H stat is turned down low, I wouldn't expect the rads to be bouncing hot....however as an oil boiler doesn't modulate and most of the other rads are off they may still be very hot to touch.
I've noticed on my holiday cottage system (Worcester 12/14 combi) if the rad TRV's are turned down the pump makes itself heard so I tend to keep them open. I intend to fit a room stat very soon - for some reason there isn't one - and I've no idea about the bypass system either. Oh the joys of inheriting someone elses work!!
Regards
John

Thank you for this valuable info John.

The usual setting for my Hot Water is the lowest setting. (1) and the Heating on 4 and a half out of 6 Maximum.
I have copy and pasted all of your advice to my E. Mail box for reference.

Thank you..when you give info to try and help John...you sure do give it!

" Oh the joys of inheriting someone elses work"!!

It's the joys of inheriting my OWN work I paid for that is worrying me!

Best Regards

kenny.

 

[snb]

the red button that you have reset is more likely to be the burner remote reset.(if it was a square button).

It seems that you may still have a small air leak on your oil supply line connections somewhere between the tank and the burner.

You also have a problem as if the detail you gave was that the fuel pump has to suck the oil up at least 9 feet. The recommended max is 8ft from these pumps

As far as the system wasting fuel to maintain the heatstore then i'm afraid you are stuck with that and should have had a convential system installed.

That aside it does mean that when you ask for heating your rads are heated directly from this stored heat and then this store is re heated to the temp you have selected with the hot water dial.