Query about weak earth wire situation?

[Newboy]

All float valves are fitted with pressure/flow adaptors

A simple floatvalve has either a HP jet (usually white) or a LP jet (usually red)

http://www.screwfix.com/p/arctic-pr...ting-washers-1-5-pack/9478j?_requestid=842300
http://www.screwfix.com/p/arctic-products-low-pressure-ball-valve-seating-washers-22mm-5-pack/8136j

Equilibrium and some more modern floatvalves valves will need a pressure/flow reducer if the supply exceeds the manufacturers HP spec as shown in post #38


Reducing the flow to the valve by partially closing supply valves will not reduce the pressure and, on older floatvalves, leaving a LP seat/jet in will mean that the floatvalve will not be able to close. This is due to the jet orifice being a wider diameter on a LP fitting and the rising float cannot overcome the incoming water pressure - hence the need to change to a HP jet.

Putting mains v. tank fed pressure into context, in a domestic situation a working figure would be 0.2 bar for each floor between the outlet and the base of the tank/cistern. Mains supply pressure is generally a minimum of 1 bar bt has no maximum mandated pressure.

edit: typo corrected

 

[Mikefromlondon]

So in other words, when I suggested to OP to have his cold water supply connected to his bathroom instead of the one coming from the loft storage tank.
this was suggested to help alleviate his rash symptoms. ( again this is not guaranteed to help but there is now a very strong possibility that it is the source of his problem)

I didn't have to tell OP how he would have to go about doing this, that would be down to him, but anyone else can sure suggest that to him, but you were trying to correct me instead, instead of advising him you were telling me how wrong I am for not pointing this to him. I cannot possibly cover everything in minute detail, and you started to abuse me.

Whether he would require landlord's permission or not, it is really down to him and he more than likely already knows that he would need to seek his permission. Such things are covered in a tenancy agreement, certain things are left to the tenant as their responsibility, and in case of an emergency, landlord's permission is not necessary, such as burst pipe repairs, a tenant can call an emergency plumber and bill landlord, who would probably more happier as his dwelling may have been saved from a major disaster.

There is absolutely nothing wrong for anyone to come here and suggest or point such implications that may result in so doing. There is no need to slant anyone, if you know just offer your advise to OP instaed of starting a debate and an argument, because frankly speaking there are many ways in which things can be done, we can all come up with different ideas, and thank God for that otherwise this world would have been so boring if we only had one trype of car and one type of smart phone, we have many choices and operating methods, and we don't all drive exact same way.

One can come on here and say to OP things like by the way if you went ahead and fed mains cold water direct to your bathroom, and toilet cistern, you may need to change the valve seats in your cistern , as you would now be getting higher amount of mains water pressure. This would be more than reasonable contribution from you, instead of slating people who are trying to offer help to OP with his rash problem, even though original title of poor earthing seems to have nothing to do with it anymore as he hadn't said his cold water feed came from a loft storage tank, hence that made me think how his hot water can contribute to his rash, and I do not dismiss electrolysis, if you don't agree with it, you simply walk away, but you chose to rather inflate the situation, by poking fun at me.

Whether you really need to change the valve seats or not, is again a question of choice, both valve seats will work as the float valve will exert more than enough pressure to push the rubber disc against the valve seat, bigger hole is made to allow for a better flow from a low pressure feed such as a storage tank, it is more to do with flow rather than pressure. but this is my opinion, mine alone, I am not saying yours or others is wrong.

In my life long experience I have never had any problems with cistern valve leaks, I have had a Gas safe Engineer install a combi boiler in my rented house, after its warm air heating was decommissioned, cold water was fed from a loft tank, so was the hot water from a hot water storage tank, after he installed a new condensing boiler he, he re plumbed the bathroom direct to incoming cold water, he did not suggest or even look at two toilets being fed previously with low pressure cold water supply, two years on the cisterns are still functioning properly with no leaky valves. ( according to my opinion, yes it is not necessary, but if you want to you can change it) either way there is no harm as far as i am concerned.

I low feed would only cause a problem if the tank pressure was low due to head height, and may fill a cistern very slowly, especially when the float valve is near closing point, it usually drips for a while, this may be an issue with tanked water supply, not a real issue with direct pressure as far as I am concerned.

Your or others opinion may differ, I am not here to dispute this with others opinion, I respect what others contribute in terms of knowledge, not slanting match and putting me to test my knowledge. I do not and never have questioned people, that is a fact, I have learned a few things from these forums, and I like to share what I have gained and so on, I can be wrong at times, i appreciate if some one corrected me in a more educated manner rather than spouting abuse.

Remember we were all born and did not know how to wipe our arse, didn't stop us getting this far. I am sure there may be some who still haven't masterminded, the art of wiping properly, sort of cowboy job! Merry Christmas

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not convinced that those who have been postulating possible causes of the OP's skin problems, and suggesting ways of trying to alleviate those problems, have necessarily paid enough attention to what we've been told. The OP told us ...

There is a stopcock under the sink and when I turn it off it turns off the hot and cold water supply in the kitchen and in the bathroom but the taps which work are the cold water tap in the bathroom sink and bathtub.

This presumably means that the combi-boiler (hence hot water) is supplied direct from the mains water supply, and that only the cold taps in bath and bathroom basin are supplied from the communal water storage tank. Mind you, the OP has also told us that the bath has a mixer tap, which would seem odd (and would be likely to result in backflow of hot water into the cold pipes/tank, unless it was a 'kitchen-type mixer) if hot and cold water are at different pressures

However, although he may be misinterpreting the situation, the OP has also told us that his skin problems are associated with the use of hot water. If that is the case, one would think that the problem could not be related to the water in the communal storage tank.

We have also been told that it is a multiple occupancy tenement block, with a communal cold water storage tank. If the OP is mistaken and his skin problem actually derives from the cold water in his bathroom (supplied from that tank), we should be asking whether anyone else in the building is also experiencing any similar problem.

I'm also not clear as to whether the combi boiler is serving only the OP's flat or two or more of them. If the latter, and if the OP's problem somehow relates to contamination of hot water within the combi then, again, we should be asking if anyone else is affected. Indeed, I don't think we even know whether the OP lives alone and, if not, whether other occupant(s) of his flat are being affected in any way.

Whatever the cause, what the OP is describing is fairly uncommon, even when there is known water contamination. Laboratory analysis of (both hot and cold) water in his bathroom would obviously go a long way to determining whether there was contamination of the water which might be the cause. Failing that, a specialist dermatological opinion as regards the nature and cause of the OP's skin problems might go further than his GP has been able to go in determining possible causes of the problem.

Of course, the one thing about which we are all agreed is that it is almost inconceivable that the OP's skin problems have anything to do with any aspect of his electrical installation.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Mikefromlondon]

I'm not convinced that those who have been postulating possible causes of the OP's skin problems, and suggesting ways of trying to alleviate those problems, have necessarily paid enough attention to what we've been told. The OP told us ...
This presumably means that the combi-boiler (hence hot water) is supplied direct from the mains water supply, and that only the cold taps in bath and bathroom basin are supplied from the communal water storage tank. Mind you, the OP has also told us that the bath has a mixer tap, which would seem odd (and would be likely to result in backflow of hot water into the cold pipes/tank, unless it was a 'kitchen-type mixer) if hot and cold water are at different pressures

Exactly, this cleared the fact his bathroom cold water is fed from communal tank, which could breed harmful bacteria and other matter that effects OP , or in other words apart from OP no one else appears to be suffering from symptoms like his, we are not all allergic to same level.

Oh and of course the problems with one side being fed directly with mains pressure pressure through combi boiler (hot water) and the low pressure cold water from a loft tank an cause a back flow, not surprised if one of the occupiers did open wide his hot water mixer and the loft tank overfilled and caused flooding in an upstairs flat Op said.

However, although he may be misinterpreting the situation, the OP has also told us that his skin problems are associated with the use of hot water. If that is the case, one would think that the problem could not be related to the water in the communal storage tank.

However, it is rare that we can take a bath or shower with hot water alone, it could scald us, so we have to mix some cold water with it, hence this is where cold water comes into equation.

We have also been told that it is a multiple occupancy tenement block, with a communal cold water storage tank. If the OP is mistaken and his skin problem actually derives from the cold water in his bathroom (supplied from that tank), we should be asking whether anyone else in the building is also experiencing any similar problem.

I am sure OP would have come to know or asked others who share that same tank water, including his own family members (if he don't live alone) if anyone else is suffering from this allergy he has, we have to be aware that different allergens effect people differently, I do not suffer from hay fever, lots of people do, I live with cats, and have now developed some allergy, but cats are staying, they are indispensable for me, my allergy can be taken care of by anti-hystamine tablets, but in the case of OP, his GP has prescribed him many creams and ointments for his condition and none has worked, so he has already said he may be moving out or have the source of the problem sorted out, of course he may seek his landlords permission and get a plumber to re-pipe his bath water dircetly incoming water mains, this may or may not cure his problem with rash, it could even be his towel he uses to dry himself after a bath, who knows. We don't know OP has not mentioned there could be so many other factors that causes his rash soon after a hot water bath, so he has to look at what he does after taking bath, what clothes he wears, were they washed in some soap that may be responsible for his rash rather than any of his water supplies. ther are many possibilities for this. However, we also have to bear in mind, he clearly said when he temporarily moved out for 6 weeks his condition started to improve and went away, where did he move out to? did he move with his family who uses different soap? we don't know everything.

it not clear as to whether the combi boiler is serving only the OP's flat or two or more of them. If the latter, and if the OP's problem somehow relates to contamination of hot water within the combi then, again, we should be asking if anyone else is affected. Indeed, I don't think we even know whether the OP lives alone and, if not, whether other occupant(s) of his flat are being affected in any way.

I agree, however, if he pays utility bills for his flat, then his hot water cannot be shared by others.

Whatever the cause, what the OP is describing is fairly uncommon, even when there is known water contamination. Laboratory analysis of (both hot and cold) water in his bathroom would obviously go a long way to determining whether there was contamination of the water which might be the cause. Failing that, a specialist dermatological opinion as regards the nature and cause of the OP's skin problems might go further than his GP has been able to go in determining possible causes of the problem.

Absolutely, he should then go back to his GP and ask him to be referred to dermatologist.

Of course, the one thing about which we are all agreed is that it is almost inconceivable that the OP's skin problems have anything to do with any aspect of his electrical installation.

Of course now it absolute clear, because in the beginning he lead us to weak earth, and no mention of his cold water feed is from a tank. So yes at first he did not tell us in the beginning that his cold water in bathroom was being fed from a communal tank, rather his hot water was what he thought was causing his problem and that lead to boiler and boiler lead to weak earth.
In the same way as I don't rule out his bath towel now, (if it was washed in soap that is allergic to OP) or even his fresh clothes that he wears soon after taking a hot water bath, affects him soon after which may be misleading him to think it may be his water supply, or poor earthing. Or for that matter he may be using some body spray as most people do after a bath, who knows. We got to obviously make as many pointers to help him alleviate his symptoms, after all it may be nothing to do with his water or earth or whatever, it could be something he wears or does soon after taking a bath that may be the culprit.

Kind Regards, John

Please click to expand for comments i made in red.

 

[JohnW2]

Please click to expand for comments i made in red.

I agree with most of your comments. The main place I would differ is that, even before we had all the information, it made absolutely no sense that a 'weak earth' (whatever that may be) could have had anything to do with the OP's symptoms.

It is not impossible that the water system has somehow been contaminated by something to which the OP is specifically allergic, but that's pretty unlikely. Most types of contamination one can get in water systems would affect more than one person in the building - so, if the OP knows that is not the case, then I would personally say that the first step should probably be a proper specialist medical assessment of the OP. There may be environmental causes, but this is primarily a medical problem.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Mikefromlondon]

John the world I live in, nothing is ruled out, everything is taken into consideration, If i told you that I knew someone who claimed that he could hear Radio 2 and you would almost think WTF, how can anyone hear Radio 2 in his head, something must be wrong with his head, but the fact was it was not his head nor a weak earth, but he had a tooth filling done, and since then he started to hear this radio in his head, at times he said it gets louder and clearer, at other times it is just like scrambled noise, I believed him, and put him on a test, i put earphones on and tuned to radio 2 on a portable radio, that only i could hear, and I asked him what could he hear? and he described what he heard was confirmed by me that it was not a lie, some how he could actually hear radio 2 in his head. So I am the last person not to believe what is not possible.

We all know that there is controversy about the effects of strong radio waves on brain tissue, so far results have been inconclusive, like it is suspected that mobile phones could cause brain cancer or tumors, so manufacturer's of phones now issue a general guideline how to use limit the use of a mobile phone to discharge their liability. They warn users against prolonged use of mobile phone could cause brain tumors.

The guy who claimed he could hear Radio 2 said his problem started soon after he had one of the tooth fillings done, and I don't dismiss that somehow his filling may be acting as a diode and demodulating the RF signals and minute electrical signals hitting his nerves and this being interpreted by his brain as a direct reception radio receiver.

I actually thought at the time that this could be a break through for those who cannot hear normally through their damaged ears, and perhaps this may be a an accidental discovery and a line of interest to audiologist who may find an alternative method or path of helping those who are hard of hearing or helping deaf people hear. Through there are many devices whereby hard of hearing people can wear special spectacles that have vibrating pads in contact with the outer ear bone, and they can hear better through bone conduction.

I did a further research on this subject to see if there were any more such like cases, and this is what i found:

talking of this guy able to hear radio stations, if search on google there are hundreds of people who have similar symptoms, one such interesting link I found is here http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Neurology/I-hear-radio-stations-in-my-head/show/1238436.

so i certainly will not dismiss electrolysis, as a possible cause of rash in may be a few people out of millions, and this could only occur under certain fault conditions and in may be a very few properties where they are not using RCD protected power, though rightfully I have now ruled it out, after new information was given by OP, as the focus is now on his communal cold water storage tank.

Going back to OP's post No 16, he clearly states that Even when using cold water causes his rash. see his quote below

The rash doesn’t start as a rash, whenever I use the hot water it burns my skin even when using cool water, it becomes red, itches and tiny blood filled blisters appear which only get worse with time and begin to peel like sunburn, the hot water dries my hands then cuts appear which are incredibly painful. My G.P prescribed all kinds of medication and nothing worked at all, he himself has never seen anything like this.

I moved out for 6 weeks didn’t change detergent, diet or anything else at all to see if anything changes and within the second week I was healing and within 6 weeks all my skin had healed especially my eyelids, ears and hands.

I now read his above comments (in bold) properly the 2nd time around, and came to a further conclusion that even his towel or clothes may have nothing to do with his condition, as he clearly stated above that when he moved out he did not change his diet, detergents or anything else apart from his water source, as I could not rule out towel or clothes washed in detergent that he may be allergic to, but since he wears them soon after taking a hot water bath, so he may wrongly relate his allergy (rash) to hot water from the boiler rather than his detergent.

I think most of us have now agreed that the source of his problem now seems to be his cold water feed to his bathroom from the communal water tank in the loft. Which sadly effects him alone or more than others living and sharing that same water source, as I said said different people react different to allergens and contaminants.

I would also advise OP since he said his lettings agents and his landlord isn't interested in his problem, or are not willing to take any action, he could get in touch with his environmental & health team run by his local council , and ask them for further advise, if they fail to help him, or if they serve a notice to his lettings agent to remedy the situation, but his lettings agents may find an easy solution by asking him to leave instead, at least he would not lose out on his deposit.

Or take matters into his own hands at his own risk, and get a plumber to sort out the plumbing (direct feed to mains cold supply) at his own expense, remembering that it may or may not cure his problem, I am a landlord, if my tenant made a similar complaint, first thing i would be telling him will be that all other tenants in the past never had any issue with cold water from the tank, and since it is also a communal tank, why isn't it effecting others? Of course as a landlord I would be reluctant to carry out something that I don't see any need for, but then on the other hand if I get on very well with my tenant, and he has been a good and very friendly and paid his rent on time, looked after my property, I would get it done at my expense, I would also get it done on the bases of health any way, I have never liked water storage tanks and I know they can be source of many ailments, and it is always better to connect tap feed directly to water mains. however the biggest disadvantage would be if there was a disruption to water supply for any reason, such as burst water mains, we would not get any water.

 

[JOB6]

Hi everyone a few points to make from such as interesting and informative read this thread has become. You are right this conversation started with me asking about the earth wire being labelled weak by the electrician who tested it which then made me question if that was related to the hot water problem I have been having. It could be the flow of pressure, float valves or the cold water in the loft, this will be investigated by a plumber.

I spoke with the landlord but he is going on a 2-month holiday and said I shouldn’t bother him and he will see to it when he returns. He did say that if I feel there is a problem then he doesn’t mind if I get a plumber out to resolve the issue as long as I paid for it. I mentioned this to the letting agency and they informed me that it is the landlords decision not theirs.

So I will ask a plumber to come out and ask him to first of all assess all the piping, and tell him of the issues I have been having. I will ask him to connect the cold water from the main supply to the bathroom so that everything will be enclosed. A neighbour downstairs has bad skin such as sores on his legs but he doesn’t keep well so I didn’t say anything to him.

Would anyone have any advice on what exactly I should mention to the plumber as I want to get it right the first time so that it can be fixed, thank you and MikefromLondon, you write and carry very interesting conversations so thanks.

 

[endecotp]

GO BACK TO YOUR DOCTOR.

If your doctor says the problem is with the water supply, then your landlord should pay for that to be fixed properly.
If the doctor says it's not caused by the water, then don't waste money that won't solve the problem.

Or, MOVE OUT.

 

[Newboy]

@JOB6

There is no need for, or benefit to, you spending money on any fittings or services within your flat.

1) As endcotp's post - see your doctor and, if needs be, ask to be referred to a specialist.

2) I think that it would be highly unlikely that any aspect of the water supply is causing your problems but, if you want to eliminate water contamination as a possible cause then try having samples analysed. One from kitchen cold tap, one from kitchen hot tap and one from bathroom cold basin tap. There are a number of labs that will conduct analysis of water samples, for example - https://feedwater.co.uk/laboratory-analysis/

 

[JohnW2]

GO BACK TO YOUR DOCTOR. ... If your doctor says the problem is with the water supply, then your landlord should pay for that to be fixed properly. ... If the doctor says it's not caused by the water, then don't waste money that won't solve the problem.

Quite so - that's essentially what I was implying when I wrote:

... I would personally say that the first step should probably be a proper specialist medical assessment of the OP. There may be environmental causes, but this is primarily a medical problem.

The only real difference is that I doubt that the patient's GP has enough expertise (he's already said that he has "never seen anything like it", or something like that) - hence my view that a specialist medical opinion is probably needed. Unfortunately, that's likely to take an appreciable amount of time.

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

High earth loop impedance = see your GP …… Dr Fluke ………

DS

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Job6, well well well, your landlord doesn't mind you going ahead, and he doesn't want to be bothered, but it is always best to take it in writing from him and he signs it off for you to go ahead.

As for your a plumber, you have already explained what you are going to ask him to do, so yes get him to give you a written quote and if it includes materials and labour and VAT, and ask him if he is insured against any liability arising out of his work. The rest he should be able to sort out, tell him to cap off cold water feed permanently from the tank, not just turning off a stop cock, as someone might open it and if he hasn't sealed it, it may flood your place. He should really seal it off as near to the tank as possible, I don't like the idea of stagnant water in pipes as this can give rise to bacteria growth. Ask him if your toilet cistern would require any valve changing or pressure/flow reducing device, so have him put all the necessary work he will be doing on a quote.


And I cannot believe that people are still trying to tell you to seek medical expertise when you have already proved that your condition went away when you spent 6 weeks away from this house, and so not only you would be wasting the resources of the already struggling NHS, but it will be a complete waste of your time, and money as you may have to visit specialist miles away at your expense, and wait for hours in ques.

I am sure OP is no doubt now as to the possible cause of his skin condition, and he will know what steps to take now, all the medicine prescribed to him failed to cure his condition. A dermatologist is only going to end up diagnosing his problem to water supply in the end. i.e. his skin reacts to substances present in his cold water supply, this could include things like dead birds, mice, rats, insects, other substances, algae, dust settlement and so on, yes they can diagnose what exactly his allergen is, but this may require several visits, and lot of time.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Don't forget to ask him what is he going to run your cold water supply in, would he be using plastic or copper pipes, as this will reflect on the quoted price, copper would be more expensive and as far as I am concerned i prefer it to plastic pipes. Another thing this thing has highlighted, some people are allergic to pvc, but a very few indeed, so avoid plastic pipes.

(Oh by the way, we were once told by Medical experts that plastic wrapping is no good for us men, it effects our sperm count! ) there you go for medical expertise, I know some people have 10 children and have been eating sandwiches wrapped in plastic film all their life!

 

[deadshort]

Still convinced your BAS

DS

 

[Newboy]

@JOB6

As you've stated in one of your other posts that you have no reaction to the cold supply in your bathroom even when it's heated, there is absolutely no point, repeat no point, in changing the supply arrangements.