Questions about Analogue TV Distribution

[JohnW2]

Hi there,

I’m no stranger to DIYnot, but I think this is my first foray into this particular forum. I have a few questions relating to analogue RF distribution of TV signals.

I have a system of distributing TV signals (mainly SKY, also sometimes signals derived from DVDs and other sources) by analogue RF throughout a large house (lots of coax!) which I installed 20 years or so ago. I realise that, in today’s climate, RF is just about the worst method of distribution, but it serves my purpose (mainly to bedrooms). A couple of the ‘remote’ TVs now need replacing, and this presents some issues:

1...I can’t work out whether (m)any new TVs (apart from very small ‘portable’ ones) now being sold actually have analogue tuners. The specifications very rarely, if ever, mention analogue tuners, and I wonder whether this is because they are invariably absent, or because they don’t bother mentioning them! On the face of it, apart from a few people like me (and maybe some using ancient recorders/players etc. which only have analogue outputs), I can’t see why anyone in the UK would want to buy a TV with an analogue tuner these days.

2...If, as I suspect, the answer to (1) is that few, if any, come with analogue tuners, are there any (ideally cheap and physically small!) ‘converters’ (essentially analogue tuners) around which will convert analogue RF into something (composite, HDMI, SCART or whatever) that can be plugged into a modern TV?

3...If all else fails, is there any other mode of distribution over the existing coax network (runs vary from about 8 metres to about 25 metres) that I could consider?

TIA for any advice/suggestions.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Sam Gangee]

The majority of Freeview TVs still have analogue tuners but I see these being eliminated in the near future. Meanwhile, it's a simple matter to ask (in writing) "has this an analogue tuner?"

In the fairly near future, home networking is likely to be a mix of Ethernet cable and wireless, using a small, computerised "hub". It's already possible. But don't even think about "Home Plug" type systems. They generate a lot of radio interference from the mains wiring.

You can convert analogue RF to composite video but don't expect a good quality picture!
http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/Global_DTA.htm

You can send HDMI via "CAT" (Ethernet) cable:
http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page18.htm

But wait to see what Chris has to say. He does this stuff every day and knows what's available.

 

[JohnW2]

The majority of Freeview TVs still have analogue tuners but I see these being eliminated in the near future. Meanwhile, it's a simple matter to ask (in writing) "has this an analogue tuner?"

Sure, that's simple. However, I'm attempting to 'shop around' on-line, and of the dozens (maybe hundreds) I've looked at, none of them make any mention of the presence/absence of an analogue tuner - and it would be tedious to have to ask in witing about every one of them!

In the fairly near future, home networking is likely to be a mix of Ethernet cable and wireless, using a small, computerised "hub". It's already possible.

Yes, as I implied, I realise that, but want to avoid new cabling (or wireless) if I can.

You can convert analogue RF to composite video but don't expect a good quality picture!
http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/Global_DTA.htm[/QUOTE]
Thanks - that's the very sort of thing I was thinking of, should I not be able to get hold of a suitable TV with analogue tuner. Is there any reason to expect that the picture quality would be any worse than the (mediocre) quality I'm currently getting with the analogue RF?

But wait to see what Chris has to say. He does this stuff every day and knows what's available.

Will do. Thanks again.

Kind Regards, John

 

[plugwash]

In my experiance you can usually find this stuff in the manual which you can usually download from the manufacturers website.

 

[JohnW2]

In my experiance you can usually find this stuff in the manual which you can usually download from the manufacturers website.

TRhanks. Yes, that's true. I've done it with a few, and none of the manuals I've looked at have said anything which suggests that they have analogue tuners - so they presumably don't (there would at least have to be some instructions about tuning it, even if no mention in the 'spec').

However, you know what 'on-line shopping around' is like - one 'flicks through' dozens of possibles - and it would be vey tedious to have to checkout the manual for each of them. That's why I was hoping that someone might be able to either tell me that I'm looking for something which doesn't exist (or is very rare), or else perhaps make some suggestions about makes that are known to still have analogue tuners.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I've yet to find a TV that has digital only- in this country we've only just turned off the last main analogue transmitter, and I think NI hasn't finished yet. Plus these sets are made for an international market - analogue is the "lowest common denominator". And given how long it's been around, the cost saving from omitting it would be tiny.
As Sam says, this may change in the next few years, but I think it's going to be the exception rather than the rule for a while yet.

BTW - there are now HDMI-over-coax units available. Primarily designed for the pub/leisure market where (like your house) premises will have been cabled with coax ages ago and replacing it would be difficult/costly/disruptive. However, make sure you are sitting comfortably before looking at the price

The future is probably Cat5e/Cat6 cabling. Can be used for computer networks (IP), analogue (phone), and HDMI.

Edit: if looking at the manual, don't look at the specs, look at the tuning instructions. Usually has instructions on how to autotune both digital and analogue.

 

[JohnW2]

I've yet to find a TV that has digital only- in this country we've only just turned off the last main analogue transmitter, and I think NI hasn't finished yet. Plus these sets are made for an international market - analogue is the "lowest common denominator". And given how long it's been around, the cost saving from omitting it would be tiny. As Sam says, this may change in the next few years, but I think it's going to be the exception rather than the rule for a while yet.

That sounds very reassuring and was sort-of what I initially expected to discover but I started wondering when I could find no TV (I was looking at ~22" ones) which made any mention of an analogue tuner.

BTW - there are now HDMI-over-coax units available. Primarily designed for the pub/leisure market where (like your house) premises will have been cabled with coax ages ago and replacing it would be difficult/costly/disruptive. However, make sure you are sitting comfortably before looking at the price

Yes, I've heard of that (hence the third question in my OP) - but, as you will realise, I'm looking for a fairly cheap solution!

Edit: if looking at the manual, don't look at the specs, look at the tuning instructions. Usually has instructions on how to autotune both digital and analogue.

Indeed. As you will have seen, that's why I previously wrote:

none of the manuals I've looked at have said anything which suggests that they have analogue tuners - so they presumably don't (there would at least have to be some instructions about tuning it, even if no mention in the 'spec').

... which is why I got a bit worried. Surely they would not produce user manuals for TVs with analogue tuners that didn't mention analogue tuning?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

That sounds very reassuring and was sort-of what I initially expected to discover but I started wondering when I could find no TV (I was looking at ~22" ones) which made any mention of an analogue tuner.

How many cars state (in the specs) that they have four wheels ?

I think it's one of those "doesn't need to be stated" things because "it's just there".

Actually, I can now think of a couple of tellies that I've seen without analogue tuners - but they were high-end monitors supplied with a video conferencing system with no tuners at all (it was an option, as was satellite, and a load of other stuff), and it was well before DVB was heard of.

 

[JohnW2]

How many cars state (in the specs) that they have four wheels ? I think it's one of those "doesn't need to be stated" things because "it's just there".

That's obviously what I was hoping, and why I wrote in my OP:

The specifications very rarely, if ever, mention analogue tuners, and I wonder whether this is because they are invariably absent, or because they don’t bother mentioning them!

What you say is obviously encouraging/reassuring me, so I'll have to look more carefully. However, I remain a bit concerned by the several user manuals I've looked at which give detailed instructions about tuning the digital tuner but appear to make no reference to tuning an analogue one!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Sam Gangee]

There is definitely an increasing number of TVs without analogue tuners. Mostly the "kitchen" variety with screen sizes of 22" or less. So you do need to choose carefully. I'd recommend NOT buying online. Go to somewhere local like "Richer Sounds" or "John Lewis" where you can actually see the picture quality, ask questions, and get a decent guarantee. If you buy online you'll get a 1 year "return to us" warranty. How many people keep the packaging and have the time/inclination to ship the TV back? So it's really no warranty at all - especially since the TV will probably last for a year and a day.

 

[ChrisFrost]

I can sympathise with JohnW2's problem.

The cheap supermarket/no-name brands are very poorly supported with pre-sale information. (They're poorly supported post-sales as well, come to that. But that's another story.) They are the ones most likely to quietly drop the analogue tuner. If one is shopping purely on price then it's a case of trading time and effort investigating those features in exchange for the cost saving.

With the major brands it's a little easier to get info. In most cases the manuals make mention of analogue tuning or describe the function of the TV/DTV button on the remote. In the long run it may work out cheaper sticking with the recognised brands to avoid wasting lots of time an effort in detective work.

The question about us here 'knowing' what TVs have or haven't got analogue tuners... well the only way we'd find out is by doing exactly the same homework.

As far as distributed TV goes, RF is still by far the cheapest solution. It's not great quality, but it's adequate for most peoples needs compared to the cost and complexity of other solutions. All the rest of the solutions including HDMI over coax, video over CAT cable, IP and everything else either require major rewiring or an expensive head-end system to integrate several source devices. The costs are significant.

The most cost-effective solution is to use RF but then to spend some time optimising the channel choices. The limit is still RF, but default RF channels from a Sky box or VCR/DVD combi might not give the best results so it's worth spending a little time experimenting.

 

[JohnW2]

I can sympathise with JohnW2's problem.

Thanks for your very helpful response. What you say, coupled with what others have said, reassures me that there are still plenty of TVs available with analogue tuners - it just being a case of my having to do the detective work to confirm that a particular one does. I'm happy with that - I just didn't want to waste lots of time looking for something that didn't exist! As for wondering whether anyone here would 'know' the answer, I thought it just possible that 'it was known' that, for example, some manufacturers had a stated policy of including analogue tuners - but it seems not!

RF distribution is obviously the cheapest (zero marginal cost, since I already have it) and least-hassle approach for me - so, since the quality is adequate for my purpose (I think I've already got the channel optimised), I'm sure I'll stick with it for as long as I can.

Thanks again for you interest and assistance.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Thank you for raising this it was something I had not thought about. I did look for some way to continue to use auto time/date correct functions once analogue died but failed.

Like yourself I too have coax feeding sky to every room from the analogue output on sky box and also a SCART to analogue to watch video in every room.

However when they started with the turn off it really got complicated seems freeview were changing channels every other week which in turn resulted in moving the channels used with the sky box and video unit.

Add to that the continual swapping a channel numbers one week 1 was BBC Northern the next week 1 was BBC 1 Wales.

Anyway landers were done terrestrial TV aerial came down never to go back and all problems went away. If not on free to air not interested. Dish is far better than aerial. OK I do have sky box but that's for my wife I don't get a look in.

To put an aerial up just for UK History just not worth it.

 

[JohnW2]

Thank you for raising this it was something I had not thought about. ... Like yourself I too have coax feeding sky to every room from the analogue output on sky box and also a SCART to analogue to watch video in every room.

Having been encouraged/re-assured by folk here, I've been having an day of reading many user manuals - and, as a result, I can confirm that those for a high proportion of new TVs on sale at the moment do give instructions for analogue channel tuning (obviously indicating the presence of an analogue tuner), despite only the digital tuner being mentioned in the 'spec'. There is therefore currently no problem in buying a new TV with an analogue tuner.

When the day eventually comes (and if we're still around!!) when the analogue tuners disappear, analogue-to-SCART converters like the one Sam mentioned would serve the problem - although one would obviously have to buy one for each digital-only TV.

Kind Regards, John

 

[OwainDIYer]

When the day eventually comes (and if we're still around!!) when the analogue tuners disappear, analogue-to-SCART converters like the one Sam mentioned would serve the problem - although one would obviously have to buy one for each digital-only TV.

hopefully by that time multichannel analogue-to-DTTV converter headends will be cheap enough, although I suspect that IP video will become mainstream.