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Re wiring all TV/ satellite system. What I need to do? Help

Discussion in 'Audio Visual' started by Gio I, 25 Jun 2020.

  1. Gio I

    Gio I

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    I`m just re wiring all new house and I got some doubt on how many cable I should run to make house completely future proof.

    I usually watch freeview but would be good to have a satellite option in case we want use sky in the future.

    Can anyone advise on how many cable and which one I should use.

    Many Thanks
     
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  3. Sureitsoff?

    Sureitsoff?

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    how long is a piece of string?? you will get lots of conflicting advice regarding what is required these days for tv/sat/internet etc.
    you need to think where you might fit a tv or sat box in the future ie will bedrooms/kitchen etc have tvs

    if all you want is an aerial feed to the tv then one coax cable from aerial to tv position is all that is required. for sky or equivalent add two more cables. these days with smart tvs and catch up services you need to be thinking about cat5 or 6 cabling as well. Lucid is the man on here who can best advise.
     
  4. Gio I

    Gio I

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    I`m running cat 6 cable as well into it but not sure if can only put a tv socket and cat 6 or need sat socket and extra cable. Is nowadays running everything on data? Another 2 cable for sat would make it very difficult
     
  5. Lucid

    Lucid

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    You can't make the wiring for AV completely future-proof. It's impossible; a fool's errand. Standards change and systems evolve.

    The best any of us can hope to do is cover the bases of what you can reasonably foresee your own use being within the next 3-5 years, and once that's done, then also make provision for some easier way to change the wiring to cope with whatever new standards might pop up.


    Covering the common bases:


    Freeview/digital terrestrial TV - good quality all-copper 75 Ohm coax cable such as Webro WF100, Labgear PF100, Triax TX100, Nexans NX100. Cable to avoid: anything just labelled 'RG6' or 'low loss coax' or that has silver looking -foil and/or -braid shielding. It's cheaper, but a false economy in most cases.

    Wire from an outdoor aerial mounted as high up as possible to a central distribution point. Where that central distribution point is depends on whether the distribution gear is passive (a simple multi-way unpowered splitter) or actively amplified. It may also affect the location of the central point if you're trying to bring together both aerial and satellite distribution in one.

    Unpowered splitters need to be located as close to a mid point between all the TVs as possible; so you have a long cable from the aerial, and then shorter cables to each TV. This retains the benefits of the higher signal strength direct from the aerial for the majority of the cable run, and it reduces the length of cable that the reduced signal after splitting has to run.

    For powered splitters, the opposite is the case: Short cable from the aerial, long cables to each TV point. The short cable gives the amp the best quality signal from the aerial. The long cables to the TV point use the amplifier's signal boost to offset the transmission losses down the longer cables.


    Satellite - Sky -
    If you're a new subscriber to Sky, or you're adding Sky to a property where you haven't had it before, then Sky will rent to you their SkyQ system.

    Sky Q uses a main box as the entire system recorder. Whether you have just the one box, or the main box plus several of the SkyQ Mini boxes for Q in multiple rooms, they all draw their signal from the main box. The advantage here is that it does away with additional satellite cables to each of the secondary rooms. The Mini boxes get their signals via a network connection. This could be Wireless or via Ethernet or via Powerline connections. There are pros and cons with each.

    The outside of the house still needs a Sky satellite dish. (There is talk of Sky via broadband, but at the moment the UK hardware doesn't support this so it's only available in some European countries where Q was rolled out much later with newer hardware.)

    The dish on a wall feeds two cables to the main box location, and that's it. There are no other dish cable feeds to any other boxes. In general, for a property that hasn't had it before, Sky will install the dish and run the cabling to the main box location.


    Satellite - Freesat
    Satellite doesn't have to be just Sky, but their subscription packages do offer a bigger choice of content than Freeview or Freesat alone. Another way of making use of Satellite is the competitor system to Freeview. It's called Freesat.

    LG makes TVs with sockets for an aerial connection (Freeview) and a Satellite connection (Freesat). It's possible to swap between the two systems. Humax and other PVR box manufacturers make Freesat receivers and recorders.

    Unlike SkyQ, Freesat requires at least one satellite feed per room where a receiver box or Freesat-enabled TV might live. Freesat recorders require two feeds to each box if the watch-live-while-recording-another-channel feature is to be used to its maximum benefit.

    Here are some important differences between Freeview, Freesat and SkyQ

    * With Freeview, a single aerial feed can be split and distributed to lots of TVs and recorders. The signal can also be looped through a recorder and in to a TV; so in essence, one aerial feed in to the room could serve a 2/3/4-channel recorder and then go on to supply the TV with signal without any issues. The same is not true of a basic Freesat signal

    * Freesat requires one satellite dish signal feed per tuner. For example, a room with a Freesat enabled TV and a twin channel Freesat recorder would need 3x signal cables if all the facilities are to be used without clashes

    * Freesat signals cannot be looped through one device to then feed another without running in to problems of channel clashes, lost signal and missed recordings. Similarly, Freesat signals cannot be split to serve two or more tuners in a room. One cable per tuner is the golden rule

    * The older Sky+/Sky+HD satellite dish installations used an LNB on the dish arm that was compatible with Freesat boxes. The same signal would work for Freesat as well as Sky+HD without any changes to the dish, its alignment or the wiring

    * A standard SkyQ dish LNB signal is not directly compatible with Freesat recorders. It is possible to request something called a hybrid LNB. This has multiple outpus, so for SkyQ, and others for Sky+/Sky+HD legacy gear. The legacy outputs are compatible with Freesat recorders

    [NOTE: This list isn't exhaustive.]



    Pulling this all together -

    So far, we've treated Freeview and Freesat as separate systems. Freeview is easy to understand. To recap: One aerial feed in to some form of splitter feeds the entire house. The signal can be looped through devices to feed several tuners at the same time.

    Freesat requires one signal cable per tuner. This is normally indicated by the number of satellite screw-on connectors on the devices requiring signals, a TV having just one, and a twin tuner PVR having two.

    Traditionally, a satellite dish with a 4-output LNB (Quad LNB) could feed for tuners. Changing the LNB to an 8-output version (Octo LNB) would feed eight tuners. That's a lot of cable, and there is a more elegant solution, so we'll now talk about Multiswitches.


    A multiswitch is a distribution amplifier with a special trick up its sleeve. It can distribute satellite signals. That's because the common multiswitch is used with a different type of LNB called a Quattro. This LNB feeds all four phases of the satellite LNB signal to the switch, and then the switch acting a bit like an old style telephone switchboard operator in making sure that the tuners get the correct phase for whichever channel needs to be shown or recorded.

    A standard multiswitch then has four inputs for the 4 phases of the satellite signals, and one input for a TV aerial feed. Each output from the multiswitch carries the TV signal plus any of the four phases of satellite as requested by the tuner. Satellite and TV signals operate at different frequencies so they won't interfere with each other.

    You still need one signal cable per satellite tuner from the mutliswitch to your rooms, but the practical limit of how many satellite receiving tuners a system can support is effectively removed. Multiswitches and the additional amplifiers are available to cater for the largest hotels with hundreds of bedrooms, so it's unlikely you'll hit the limit in a standard domestic property.



    Wireless may well be easy, and convenient, and mess-free, and promise great speeds, but a lot of this relies on good or even perfect conditions to deliver on all the promises. Some of it, such as BT's claims for the speeds of their wireless router (Home Hub etc, conveniently forget to mention that they turn off support for slower devices, and so the theoretical maximums they claim may not apply to everything you want to run.

    (continued in pt 2)

    If this or any other reply was helpful to you, then please do the decent thing and click the T-H-A-N-K-S button on the posts you found helpful. The Thanks button appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. It's not a big thing to ask of you, and it costs you nothing. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you.
     
  6. Lucid

    Lucid

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    (pt 2)

    "So, what about SkyQ?"
    There are multiswitches available that are compatible with SkyQ, both with the standard Q LNB and with the hybrid version. Bear in mind that a Q install only needs two direct feeds from the dish to the main box to support the whole Q multiroom system. On this basis, ask yourself if you need to go to the additional expense of getting a Q-compatible multiswitch system when Sky will install the two cables to the box location for you.


    "What cabling for all of this?"
    Simple. Webro WF100, Labgear PF100, Triax TX100, Nexans NX100. It really is as simple as that.


    "What else will be useful to consider?"

    Network cabling (Ethernet) - Wireless may well be easy, and convenient, and mess-free, and promise great speeds, but a lot of this relies on good or even perfect conditions to deliver on all the promises. Some of it, such as BT's claims for the speeds of their wireless router (Home Hub etc, conveniently forget to mention that they turn off support for slower devices, and so the theoretical maximums they claim may not apply to everything you want to run.

    Long story short, if your device has an Ethernet socket on it, then that will generally give the fastest and most consistent network connection speeds. Faster, more reliable, and able to run at the same time as several other wired devices rather than time-sharing which is what mostly happens with Wi-Fi.

    Keep wireless free for devices that can only connect via Wi-Fi such as mobile phones, tablets and the laptop as you're sitting in the garden. This will help preserve the Wi-Fi speeds.


    HDMI cabling in walls - We want things to look neat, so putting cables in-wall is a reasonable idea. Bear in mind thought that cables and plug ends can get damaged. Also, the cable I was installing five years ago won't do for today's higher-bandwidth devices such as 4K Blu-ray players running Dolby Vision to higher-end TVs. Being able to change the cable out without breaking open the walls is a sensible idea.

    Put in conduit (mini trunking) to act as a tunnel for the cables to run inside. Bury this in the wall.


    Speaker cables - All too often I get a call from a prospective customer who has just had a major build or refurbishment completed, and the place looks great and is fully decorated. Then they think about some kind of home entertainment system with surround or maybe inceiling speakers for the full Dolby Atmos effect and realise that they missed the chance to hide those cables.


    If this or any other reply was helpful to you, then please do the decent thing and click the T-H-A-N-K-S button on the posts you found helpful. The Thanks button appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. It's not a big thing to ask of you, and it costs you nothing. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you
     
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  7. winston1

    winston1

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    All good stuff from Lucid except that he needs to wash his mouth out and disinfect his keyboard for suggesting Powerline connections (Homeplugs). They are evil things which should have been banned years ago. They cause serious interference to other users of the radio spectrum. Early ones mainly affected short wave radio. The latest ones affect FM and DAB radio. See this BBC white paper:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/whitepaper195

    Note that air traffic control uses frequencies between DAB and FM so this can be affected as well. Don't even think that interference at ground level will not affect 'planes thousands of feet in the air. Read this worrying report:

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/features-and-news/interference-issue

    Even more information here:

    https://www.frequencycast.co.uk/powerline.html
     
  8. Lucid

    Lucid

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    Point of order here: I didn't suggest using Powerline adapters. I simply detailed that SkyQ has the Powerline tech built-in. There's a bit of a difference there.

    Further to that, for a new SkyQ installation, where Sky's own installers (or their subbies, if that's how they do it) install the hardware, and where Wi-Fi is unreliable and Ethernet not available, then they will use the fallback of Powerline connections before calling it quits. Once again, this isn't me suggesting that this is the right way to go. I'm simply acknowledging the reality of what happens.
     
  9. Sureitsoff?

    Sureitsoff?

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    told you Lucid is the main man on here
     
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  11. winston1

    winston1

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    Point taken. Sorry.
     
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  12. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Yes @Lucid is the main man here, I was unaware SkyQ used power line technology, that maybe explains my problem, the satellite boxes every so often loose signal, and my house split for sockets front/back so there are two RCBO's and a surge protection device between main and satellite boxes, had I know it used power line technology I would have likely rejected them.

    However when we moved I found in new house Freeview comes from a satellite station and only the main channels are broadcast, so even if I put up a better aerial, the stations were severely limited, I had one HD satellite box, not Freesat but free to air, main difference is the electronic program guide (EPG) it putting is simply is a bit hit and miss with free to air, with Freesat same as Sky with 7 day guide, the only problem is to record a program which is shown on the EPG is easy, far more complex if not on EPG. So I was faced with running coax cables.

    The main TV had free to air built in, however clearly some thing wrong with it, as half the channels missing, I will guess some thing to do with voltage signal which tells LNB if horizontal or vertical polarised, I had old Sky boxes, one was HD rest were not, so only one with HDMI socket. And it really does make a difference, I always said I don't have HD eyes so no point, but had a 32 inch TV set up from same box with SCART and HDMI and HDMI even with non HD programs was a far better picture.

    So option was 1) buy some more HD satellite boxes and tread coax, or go for SkyQ, and it made life so much easier, I bent to wife's request for SkyQ we have 3 satellite boxes, but can only use 2 on our package, but there are only 2 of us, so no real problem. So it was a simple plug in and go.

    With mothers house we had Sky, however when the people winding up her affairs cancelled sky they did some thing to upset them, so we went to different broad band provider, we went to Post Office as thought they have been providing telephone since I was a lad to the house, we lost the phone number, and the service was rubbish, and you sign up for a year, when house sold found Post Office still charging us even after we had told them sold and a different phone line provider was giving phone and internet to house. So we wanted some one we knew gave a good service, so went for Sky which had served us well in the past. So it was not just SkyQ for TV we went with Sky because we personally had a good service in the past.

    I can see how there are now loads of providers who are likely cheaper than SkyQ, but it works for us, and that is the main point, what works for me may not work for you, and it seems every system has different requirements, so near impossible to future proof.
     
  13. winston1

    winston1

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    Not the end of the world. You can switch off the PLT function in the menus. (Maybe the hidden menus).
     
  14. Gio I

    Gio I

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    How far cat 6 and tv cable need to stay from electric wire on the ceiling void ? got few area where they cross each other. Is there any pipe or some sort of product to wrap then to avoid future issue?

    Thanks
     
  15. Lucid

    Lucid

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    10" / 25cm is a good rule of thumb where cables travel parallel to each other for a metre or more.

    Crossing at 90 degrees shouldn't be an issue.

    Cat cables radiate high-frequency energy, as do HDMI cables. If I have to bundle any wires together, I'd put power, Cat and HDMI cables together if needed, and all of them away from aerial/satellite and audio cables.

    Cat and HDMI both use differential signalling as a way of cancelling out any noise that they pick up in the cable journey. Any noise they pick up between them is (or should be) dealt with at the transformers in each socket. Ordinary "single-ended" cables such as aerial/satellite coax and audio cables doesn't have this.


    You asked "Is there any pipe or some sort of product to wrap then to avoid future issue?" Given reasonable installation precautions and decent cable, then it shouldn't be required.

    From a practical point of view for installation, any kind of wrap would have to be a foil-based tape. Foil is very good at inhibiting the passage of high frequency noise, but it's lousy at then draining that energy away because the resistance of any large-surface-area thin flat conductor is usually lousy. This is partly why coax cables include both a foil shield and a mesh braid. The mesh deals far more effectively with low frequency noise such as mains hum. It's also far lower resistance than foil, so it's a better conductor for draining away the inductance energy. What all this means is that any foil wrap as an attempt to block noise would be a waste of time and money. Just buy decent cable. This includes your Cat cable.

    Just a thought too, don't be tempted to use shielded Cat 6 cable (or any shielded Cat cable) thinking that it will improve the noise rejection of the system. You could well end up making things worse rather than better.

    The transformer decoupling of differential signalling (balanced) cabling system is called Galvanic Isolation. For lack of a better description, it puts the signal and any noise it picks up in to an isolated bubble, and this extends to the earthing as well. By using shielded cables, there's a very good chance that you'll burst that bubble.


    Edit in response to your post #14 below

    Just to recap

    Most of your questions have already been answered. I think the important thing to remember is that the separation applies more to longer cable runs rather than what happens when you bring cables together in a socket or at the back of some piece of equipment.

    Just to be clear then, if you're planning on lifting floors, chasing walls or putting cables in-ceiling, then they're going to be running for more than a metre in general, so that's when you keep cables apart.




    If this or any other reply was helpful to you, then please do the decent thing and click the T-H-A-N-K-S button on the posts you found helpful. The Thanks button appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. It's not a big thing to ask of you, and it costs you nothing. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you
     
    Last edited: 26 Jun 2020
  16. Gio I

    Gio I

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    Just to recap

    I got a situation with cat and tv on the same socket. Can these 2 cable be on the same chase?

    Can I keep cat 6 and tv close each other?

    Can I run cat 6 close and parallel to power?

    As you suggested, will try to place all tv at 25cm from power.

    Thanks
     
  17. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I am sure you could use Ali-tube cable for the mains and so reduce the interference. However I personally don't think worth the effort.
     
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