Reasons not to steal cables

[JohnW2]

Take a group of otherwise healthy people and expose them to a proving. ... If the materia medica is accurate and true then it reflects real symptoms reported by real people after taking a remedy. If this can be scientifically reproduced (statistics included) then homeopathy has a case does it not? If not (and I suspect it is an if-not) then homeopathy surely has no basic axiom does it not?

It's been done, with predictable results, but that does not faze the 'believers', and obviously does not surprise the 'non-believers'. The believers merely attempt to discredit the research with all sorts of fanciful pseudoscience.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

I don't think many conventional ('allopathic') doctors would disagree with that - but, as you say, pressures on time/resources are such that 'chemical bullets' are often all that can realistically be offered. You only have to look at 'the private sector', where consulattions may be 30-60 minutes, rather than 5-10 minutes (or less) to see doctors doing what they'd like to have time to do.

Yes I do understand the plight of allopathic doctors working within the NHS. As things are they simply do not have the time to practice and perfect anything similar to the "homeopathic conversation" especially in GP surgeries and F1/F2s on the wards seem to have everything dumped on them with barely any time to think. Though I am also a believer that we create our own unnecessary pressures at times. There is no question that homeopathic remedies are no more than pseudoscience but every discipline has something to offer and I think the homeopathic conversation is something that allopathic doctors should consider.

 

[sparkticus]

It's been done, with predictable results, but that does not faze the 'believers', and obviously does not surprise the 'non-believers'. The believers merely attempt to discredit the research with all sorts of fanciful pseudoscience.

There are times whan I think the act of spouting pseudoscience should be made an illegal act

On the other hand it is a largely harmless system - yes I know that homeopaths don't like that term because they say their remedies can be dangerous in the wrong hands But provided homeopaths properly refer patients to mainstream medicine when they see red flags and provided tax payers don't fund homeopathy I have no gripe.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes I do understand the plight of allopathic doctors working within the NHS. As things are they simply do not have the time to practice and perfect anything similar to the "homeopathic conversation" especially in GP surgeries and F1/F2s on the wards seem to have everything dumped on them with barely any time to think. Though I am also a believer that we create our own unnecessary pressures at times. There is no question that homeopathic remedies are no more than pseudoscience but every discipline has something to offer and I think the homeopathic conversation is something that allopathic doctors should consider.

No argument with any of that. One factor, of course, is changing expectations of the population. An awful lot of medical time and resources is expended (wasted?) dealing with minor things for which, in pre-NHS days, no-one would have dreamed of seeking medical assistance. Such initiatives as 'NHS Direct' (which has many failings, but well-intentioned),minor injury/ailment clinics (mainly staffed by nurses) and the increasing role of pharmacists and other paramedical professions are attempting to address that to some extent.

Speaking of 'pre-NHS days', what you are saying (and I don't disagree) would be little more than turning the clock back half a century or so. Pre-WW2, the number of 'chemical bullets' available was pretty small, and even many of them didn't work very well in a pharmacological sense. Nevertheless, doctors did surprisingly well at treating patients, so a fair bit of their success was undoubtedly due to the 'conversations' they had with patients, rather than any chemicals.

However, as I've been saying, you're preaching to a converted profession - who would like to do just as you suggest, if only the resources existed to do it.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

There are times whan I think the act of spouting pseudoscience should be made an illegal act

Quite so! Indeed, in some situations it effectively already is unlawful, if it is being done deliberately for financial gain and, in particular, if it leads to misleading 'medicinal claims'.

There On the other hand it is a largely harmless system - yes I know that homeopaths don't like that term because they say their remedies can be dangerous in the wrong hands

Indeed. As you say, they hate the suggestion. They even 'ban' more than a certain level of serial dilution of their remedies, on the grounds that this could make them so dangerous as to be lethal!!

However, to all us outsiders, as you say, homoeopathy is essentially harmless - unless its use results in deprivation of important 'proper treatment'.

But provided homeopaths properly refer patients to mainstream medicine when they see red flags and provided tax payers don't fund homeopathy I have no gripe.

One of the things I understand least is that taxpayers do fund it to some extent - since, for whatever reason, there is some prescrining of homoeopathic remedies allowed on the NHS - not to mention the Royal Homoeopathic hospital. It seems that NICE has probably not (yet) done its job in this area!!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

However, as I've been saying, you're preaching to a converted profession - who would like to do just as you suggest, if only the resources existed to do it.

Understood and I didn't mean to come across as preaching. I do know a number of doctors and nurses who desperately want more time to practice medicine in a more holistic way.

I just get so irritated when I see/hear about the following

1) drunk - abusive teenagers wasting A&E resources (the repeat offenders)
2) drug addicts with various drug related ailments asking for analgesia prior to a blood sample being taken!!!
3) self inflicted injuries related to dangerous activities - I applaud the activity but should they not be purchasing a medical insurance policy before hand?
4) repeat alcoholic liver disease patients on gastro wards with all sorts of related ailments. Wondering around wards (often naked) bothering staff and other patients.

Well, thinking about it as I write, there is a long list. I fully understand that some people take to drugs and alcohol out of desperation and that I take into account but there are others (and they are many) that fully abuse the system, resources and staff. My opinion is continue to treat them but send them bills for the treatment. Of course they wont pay but bill them anyway then take them to county court for non-payment.

 

[sparkticus]

Indeed. As you say, they hate the suggestion. They even 'ban' more than a certain level of serial dilution of their remedies, on the grounds that this could make them so dangerous as to be lethal!!

yes, despite the fact that the dilutions are often beyond avagadro's number they go further to say that dilutions (and succussion) something in the region of (10 to the minus 15) could be lethal. They are careful to us "could" because as far as I know it has never come up in an autopsy report

 

[JohnW2]

Understood and I didn't mean to come across as preaching. I do know a number of doctors and nurses who desperately want more time to practice medicine in a more holistic way.

I think it's a lot more than 'a number of'. I think that the mast majority of those in healthcare professions would like to do that, if they could.

I just get so irritated when I see/hear about the following
1) drunk - abusive teenagers wasting A&E resources (the repeat offenders)
2) drug addicts with various drug related ailments asking for analgesia prior to a blood sample being taken!!!
3) self inflicted injuries related to dangerous activities - I applaud the activity but should they not be purchasing a medical insurance policy before hand?
4) repeat alcoholic liver disease patients on gastro wards with all sorts of related ailments. Wondering around wards (often naked) bothering staff and other patients.
Well, thinking about it as I write, there is a long list. I fully understand that some people take to drugs and alcohol out of desperation and that I take into account but there are others (and they are many) that fully abuse the system, resources and staff. My opinion is continue to treat them but send them bills for the treatment. Of course they wont pay but bill them anyway then take them to county court for non-payment.

That's a common and tempting argument, and it certainly could be (and to a very small extent is) applied in some situations. However, the problem is that the argument has few bounds, particularly relating to your (3) and (4). If the NHS decided that it wasn't going to pay for the cost of treatment of ('self-inflicted') conditions resulting from participation in sports (in the widest sense) or DIY activities (in the widest sense) or driving, or for treating diseases at least partially resulting from eating, drinking, drug abuse, exercise or other 'lifestyle' factors, then there would not be all that much left! This has been talked about for decades, and I guess a main reason is the difficulty in deciding where to draw a line. Also,of course, it is not a 'free' system at all,but one for which taxpayers pay a lot of money - those who were denied NHS treatment because of the cause of their illness/injury would therfore have some grounds for complaint.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

yes, despite the fact that the dilutions are often beyond avagadro's number they go further to say that dilutions (and succussion) something in the region of (10 to the minus 15) could be lethal. They are careful to us "could" because as far as I know it has never come up in an autopsy report

Exactly.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There are times whan I think the act of spouting pseudoscience should be made an illegal act

But what about poor old Russ Andrews?




























































Ah - OK - I see your point..

 

[sparkticus]

But what about poor old Russ Andrews?

I understand he has been arrested for waving his "mains cable resolution, dynamics, faithfulness to the source, musicality" about in public.

 

[echoes]

 

[stillp]

http://xkcd.com/690/

 

[SimonH2]

I bet that if a group of people were:

1) Motivated and trained

2) Large enough and well equipped enough

3) Not afraid to die

They could take out the electricity supply for all, or huge parts, of London or other major cities for long enough to make those cities uninhabitable.

1 is a pre-requisite
2 isn't as onerous as you might think
3 if 1 is applied, 3 doesn't even need to be a consideration.

There are well known ways to make an HV electrical installation unusable, in fact allied forces used them to knock out power in Iraq - the method used was supposed to just make breakers trip due to a flashover fault and then allow reset, but in practice it required replacement of all the insulators affected.

Without going into too much detail, a few modified fireworks (and in particular a slow fuse to allow retreat to safe distance) and I reckon an HV line could be effectively knocked out until insulators were changed. Do that to enough lines (which conveniently go for miles and miles in open country) and you'd cripple the grid. If that happened, where do you think the operators would find the numbers of skilled staff and equipment to fix multiple simultaneous faults ?

Even if you failed to come up with a reliable means of creating a 'permanent' fault, apply enough temporary faults to a line and it would still be out of action while the operator set out to inspect it. How many times would they reconnect a line that immediately re-tripped with a flashover before deciding it's no longer a good idea ? It might not take out the power for very long, but it could still create massive problems - and especially generate a huge propaganda storm.


Yes I could see it needing a bit of practice and "research" - but if it's someone else's infrastructure you're buggering about with, who cares about the cost