removing external wall

[sallysmedley]

hi - i'm wondering if someone could give me an idea of how much this might cost (roughly!)
i'm having a badly built 'lean-to' utility room converted (into a conservatory) and want to knock through from my kitchen.
i just want to get a very rough idea of how much it might cost to open up the wall. the opening would be 3 meters wide, and is an external wall, so would need an rsj.
i just want to get an idea of how much this sort of thing should cost, before i get too hopeful about my plans - installing rsj, removing wall and making good. should i be thinking £1000 / £5000? or more?!

 

[noseall]

are you aware of the implications of simply knocking through, without separating the conservatory from the habitable space, with an external spec door?

 

[Richard C]

are you aware of the implications of simply knocking through, without separating the conservatory from the habitable space, with an external spec door?

In addition to the implications noseall is refering to, a 3m opening is not your usual stuff & I advise some professional assistance + your LABC will almost certainly want to see some calculations for that size opening!

 

[sallysmedley]

what are the implications? would this need planning permission? there is already an existing structure there.

i assume i need to discuss with building control - what issue might they have?

thanks for any advice!

 

[Richard C]

There are rather a lot of variables here! Are you keeping the existing structure or knocking it down & putting up a new one? Does it have a proper tiled roof or a glass roof like a conservatory? How many windows does it have? Is there currently internal access through from the main property? Presumably there is water & a sink in there, are you planning to continue to use it as a utility room? Does the wall you’re planning to knock a hole in continue upstairs?

You’re unlikely to need planning permission for a conservatory or even a small extension if your permitted development rights are still intact but you should still check with your local planning authority. Conservatories are generally exempt from Building Regulations (but not any electrics in them) as long as they meet certain criteria, are separated from the main property by an external door & any heating in there must be separately controlled & capable of isolation from the main heating system; & I don’t think you can use a conservatory (if that’s what it will be classed as) as a utility room. Building Control’s main interest is going to be your knocking a 3m hole in (presumably) a supporting wall; a hole that size is going to need a fairly large structural lintel & BC will want to inspect it & how it’s supported before it’s covered up with plaster etc. & may require structural calculations to satisfy themselves it won’t all fall down.

 

[sallysmedley]

Thanks for your help Richard - sorry to be so vague.

It is a utility room - with plumbing for sink / washing machine. It basically fills the L-shaped gap between our kitchen and dining room (so both our dining romm and kitchen look directly into it - not a great view!) It's been there at least 20 years.

Currently it is a wood frame construction, with a plastic roof and 1 glass wall (2 walls are the house external walls, and one is the 'garden wall') . It leaks like a sieve, so originally I planned on replacing the roof and making good the glass 'wall', but the wood frame in worse than I realised.

So the whole thing will need to be re-built. With that in mind, it seems worth considering knocking through the wall from our kitchen (extending our kitchen).

To satisfy building regs, I assume I'll need to properly insulate, put in a glass room etc. And will need a serious RSJ etc.

Is there anything else I need to consider?

 

[noseall]

Is there anything else I need to consider?

££££££££££££££.

 

[sallysmedley]

oh no!

how much do you think this could cost (ish)?

just the removing the wall bit - i've already got some (ok) prices for rebuilding the room...

 

[Richard C]

You can’t do what you’re proposing & maintain it as a temporary structure, which it currently is; you can repair the external bit as you like but I’m not sure you could re-build it (as is) as a utility room under current regulations! You must also maintain an external door between the 2 rooms or the utility/cons. will no longer be classed as a temporary structure & will no longer be exempt from B Regs. If you want to knock through & extend your kitchen into this area, it will have to be a proper extension which complies with the current insulation (& other) standards; i.e. insulated walls, compliant windows & either flat or pitched roof that complies with current thermal insulation standards. Without knowing the size of the room, what you intend to put in there or local conditions, it’s difficult to say how much but noseall’s £££££ signs are a good guide! If the room is big enough to take a 3m opening in the wall, it sounds like a fairly large space! As a guide, I paid £16K for a top spec. 4.5m x 5m conservatory but if I’d built that as an extension to full regulation spec. I would expect to add another £5 - £8K onto that; your budget of £5k is unrealistic & nowhere near enough!

Remember the onus is on you, the house owner to comply with the Building Regs. & not the builder or whoever is doing the work for you. They will generally only be interested in getting paid for the work they are doing, they won’t necessarily tell you what you’re doing is wrong even if they know it to be so!

 

[^woody^]

they won’t necessarily tell you what you’re doing is wrong even if they know it to be so!

In which case they would be negligent in law. Work as a builder or any trade, and you are expected to have an understanding of the work you do and the regulations related to it. There is an obligation to tell the customer, and the builder can't escape that.

Anyway, I can't see why the OP can't leave the w/m and sink in this room and just rebuild the shell. There is nothing to prevent the OP from having these in a conservatory.

From a b/regs point of view, their interest should only be with the new structural beam. As long as the separation remains from the main house, then thats it. If the waste drain was being moved, then that would be a b/regs issue, but as it is already there, it is not

All the OP has to do is to refrain from calling it a utility room Its a conservatory.

But as already mentioned, in opening up the house and 'extending ' the kitchen into the lean-to, then b/regs come into play

 

[Richard C]

they won’t necessarily tell you what you’re doing is wrong even if they know it to be so!

In which case they would be negligent in law. Work as a builder or any trade, and you are expected to have an understanding of the work you do and the regulations related to it. There is an obligation to tell the customer, and the builder can't escape that.

So can the op tell us if those who have already quoted to “knock through” pointed out the possibility that it might contravene B regs? If it’s a bona-fide builder with a reputation to protect, I would expect them to be honest, open & comply with the regulations but there are so many “bodgit & scarper” merchants around, I wouldn’t put my money on it, especially with such a small job! As for being negligent under the law, certainly but does the op really want to have to go through the process of proving it! & when BC come to inspect the lintel installation, the games up anyway!

I did say the op has the option of repairing the current structure already but at what point does the extent of repairs make it a new structure; it only takes one interfering, nosey bl**dy neighbour & a visit from BC! Locally, we have a well known ex-speedway impresario & latterly property developer who just this week has been served an enforcement notice to rip down unauthorised development of his barn complex which includes his workshop & I thought that would have been exempt!

 

[sallysmedley]

I've had 3 builders and 3 conservatory people along.

None of the builders mentioned building regs when it came to removing the wall. It could be that they thought I'd know, or as we're only a quote stage they didn't mention it. It could be because it's a utility room (not a conservatory) and is an existing structure that they didn't think it was a problem...? But it was only when I started to look online for comparable costings that I picked up on the Building Regs.

All conservatory companies have since talked about regs and the various implications.

It is difficult as a customer, as I have no experience about this sort of stuff, and all the builders I spoke to came on recommendation - so all pretty reliable.

It's a shame, because externally the building will look exactly the same, but I am so concerned about how involved building regs could get (fire exits etc.) that I don't know how to ensure the project wouldn't get way beyond my budget. And I'd want to make sure we were going by the book.

Is there anyone I can get to come along and give me proper advice - my local building regs weren't helpful at all.

 

[^woody^]

Is there anyone I can get to come along and give me proper advice

I could, but it wouldn't be proper advice - it would be the same as above.

The situation is - keep a door between the house and your lean-to and you can do what you want no b/regs apply.

Have an open walkway between your house and your lean-to and it will require b/regs.

Replace the lean-to like for like and its just maintenance

 

[Richard C]

I’m sorry to say I’m not surprised that some of the builders you’ve had in have been less than forthcoming when it comes to explaining the potential implications of what you’re proposing. It’s interesting that the con’s companies were more ‘open’ perhaps it’s because they need to keep their FENSA registration intact!

There may be slight differences of opinion & approach between Woody & myself but the advice we’ve both given is the same & is based on knowledge & experience. It is ‘proper’ advice & getting someone else in will only cost you money, it will not change anything. Your situation is, basically, as Woody’s says;

• Keep a door between the house and your lean-to and you can do what you like, the regs. wont apply
• Have an opening between your house and your lean-to and it will mean you WILL have to comply with the regs.
• Replace the lean-to like for like and its just maintenance

But watch those nosey neighbours!