Replacing a 25+ old Potterton boiler. Getting quotes for £3k+ to replace with combi.

[attackon]

My partner and I live in a small 2 bed, semi-detached house roughly 600+ square feet. Based in West London. No plans on having children so it'll just be us but we may (i.e not anytime soon, just on the off chance if circumstances are right) decide to extend kitchen/convert loft.

The boiler starts up on demand (from our Nest thermostat installed in Nov) just fine and I can see the fire lighting up in the little window and it's definitely noisy enough to be doing something. However, no heating or hot water

I can't get through to the niche engineer as he's busy but last time I enquired about a service, it would cost £500 because he lives quite a while away and that includes his travel cost. He did do a good job and seems to know his stuff about this old boiler but at that cost, not including fixing our issue, which may add up more, would it just make sense to replace? I've tried calling up some places but most are giving me 'we'll come out and will have a look but there's a call out charge, no guarantees' or 'we don't fix that, better to get a new one'.

Current boiler is a standard (hot water tank and cold tank in loft) setup and based in the kitchen. Looking to replace to a combi in the same room.

A friend's plumber gave me this quote:

• £3280 for all labour and materials:
• Removing old system boiler, hot and cold water tanks.
• Vaillant Eco Fit Pure 830, 30kw
• TRV for 5 radiators
• Wireless thermostat
• Flushing the system
• Vaillant Protector
• Water scale reducer
• 10 year manufacturer warranty

We have a Nest thermostat (only installed in Nov) and he said because it's a two way channel, it might not work so potentially £300 down the drain there for me :
Boxt for the same boiler is £3645. Also £40 per TRV so it'll be another £200 on top. Their quote includes:

• Vaillant ecoFIT Pure 830 30kw
• ESi Programmable Room Thermostat with Stand
• Converting Standard Boiler to a Vaillant Wall Mounted Combi
• Vaillant horizontal flue installation
• Disposal of your old boiler
• Carbon Monoxide Alarm
• Combi Boiler Fittings Pack
• Vaillant Magnetic System Filter
• Vaillant Integral Filling Link
• Condensate pipeworkPipework installation, alterations and upgrades
• Fernox Water TreatmentElectrical work
• Boiler Aftercare: 10 years warranty (on-site parts & labour)
• BOXT to register the warranty & Building Control CertificateChemical Flush
• BOXT 1 year workmanship guarantee

Is the Vaillant Protector the same as on the things mentioned in the Boxt quote? Is there anything important included in the Boxt quote that is missed from the plumber's? I'm assuming half of the stuff there is just standard trimmings.

The plumber is registered with Vaillant but he said he would also do Worcester Bosch Greenstar 4000 30kw at the same price. I enquired about the WB 2000 model but he said the 4000 is better as it's more powerful. Is the 4000 adequate/too much for my small 2 bed terraced 600+ square feet?

Are these prices about right?

I have been thinking about getting a water softener (any recommendations? ) so might get it done at the same time. It shouldn't cause any issues right? Would the scale reducer be redundant or better to have it anyways?

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

Cheap

 

[Murdochcat]

Why won’t they use your Nest ?

 

[attackon]

Cheap

The £3.3k is a good price then? What's the usual cost for this? Thanks.

Why won’t they use your Nest ?

I think they said the would try but now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps the WB's own wireless thermostat and app would be just as good. So maybe it wouldn't make sense to wire the Nest. Of course, I'd just wasted a couple hundred quid on wasted tech.

How anyone got experience with the Worcester Borch wireless thermostat and app? How does it handle, perform and what features does it have?

Thanks!

 

[PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN]

Worster a PITA to service, get a Vogue and fit nest to it, will work a treat and easy boiler to service.

 

[oldbuffer]

1. Those quotes seem to me about right, even a little on the cheap side, for a decent boiler in West London. A friend had a similar job recently (Ealing) and paid about £3.3K for a combi : combi swap.
2. However, it might be worth getting the existing system fixed, because:
2.1 It sounds as if the boiler is firing, but hot water is not circulating.
2.2 Circulation would be through the existing pipes and radiators, so if the problem lies there rather than in the boiler, changing the boiler won't fix the problem.
2.3 Could be something as simple as a failed circulating pump, or failed motorised valve(s).
3. Find out the exact make and model of your current boiler, and then:
3.1 Look up the installation instructions on-line and work out which are the flow and return pipes. Nearly always the extreme left and right hand side copper pipes of the same diameter (usually 22 mm).
3.2 Fire the boiler up and feel the flow pipe. If it starts to heat, then the boiler is working and heating the water. Any problem is very likely to lie outside the boiler.
4. Depending on the result from 4. above, perhaps look again at getting the problem fixed.

 

[ETAF]

i have just had my boiler replaced a few weeks ago, for that valient boiler , from just a standard valient boiler for CH & hot tank - to a Combi boiler , slight change to location as we wanted fitted to the back wal instead of the side wall , effectively turning 90 degrees - so a very simple install

Already had a condisat outlet for the waste
Already had a hotwater & coldwater supply connection available at the boiler location for combi boiler

Just the boiler and new timer and they also supplied a wireless themostat (but not part of original quote as plan was to use the existing on the wall control - BUT not possible because of wires

registered for the 10year warranty

A magno flow filter

- that was £3,300 all in , removing old and disposing, of old tank, boiler and all other rubbish , flush out, new water treatment

so not as much as you are having - no change to any of the existing radiators

The valiant is our plumbers preferred boiler and also will convert to hydrogen if thats how the gas changes go in future - but i know the govenement have now stopped research apparently

anyway - best thing we have done for the tap/showers etc

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

I can only echo some of the others on this, if the Boiler is firing up as you describe, then the fault is elsewhere. Given you have no heating or hot water, my first instinct would be the pump has failed. Get recommendations for someone to have a look, I'd get them to service the Boiler at the same time, and go from there.

It will be a lot cheaper than a Boiler replacement in the short term at least provided the Boiler doesn't have any major issues.

 

[fixitflav]

The boiler starts up on demand

What model is your current boiler?

 

[attackon]

1. Those quotes seem to me about right, even a little on the cheap side, for a decent boiler in West London. A friend had a similar job recently (Ealing) and paid about £3.3K for a combi : combi swap.
2. However, it might be worth getting the existing system fixed, because:
2.1 It sounds as if the boiler is firing, but hot water is not circulating.
2.2 Circulation would be through the existing pipes and radiators, so if the problem lies there rather than in the boiler, changing the boiler won't fix the problem.
2.3 Could be something as simple as a failed circulating pump, or failed motorised valve(s).
3. Find out the exact make and model of your current boiler, and then:
3.1 Look up the installation instructions on-line and work out which are the flow and return pipes. Nearly always the extreme left and right hand side copper pipes of the same diameter (usually 22 mm).
3.2 Fire the boiler up and feel the flow pipe. If it starts to heat, then the boiler is working and heating the water. Any problem is very likely to lie outside the boiler.
4. Depending on the result from 4. above, perhaps look again at getting the problem fixed.

Thanks for this! Sounds like the prices aren't too bad then, even very reasonable. That gives me a bit more faith to make the decision if I do. I turned it on for 30 mins and neither of the two pipes underneath the boiler get warm from what I can feel. I forgot to check the two pipes above the boiler that go into the ceiling (I'm presuming to the hot water tank); is it worth checking this as well? I also checked all the pipes in the airing cupboard and none of them got warm too. When I called my friend's plumber, they had asked me to check whether I could feel a vibration on the pump when it was on and I could. He said this could mean it's 'working' and at least not a total pump failure.

This the manual https://www.upperplumbers.co.uk/PDF/Manuals/Boilers/Potterton/Neatheat_10-16.pdf

i have just had my boiler replaced a few weeks ago, for that valient boiler , from just a standard valient boiler for CH & hot tank - to a Combi boiler , slight change to location as we wanted fitted to the back wal instead of the side wall , effectively turning 90 degrees - so a very simple install

Already had a condisat outlet for the waste
Already had a hotwater & coldwater supply connection available at the boiler location for combi boiler

Just the boiler and new timer and they also supplied a wireless themostat (but not part of original quote as plan was to use the existing on the wall control - BUT not possible because of wires

registered for the 10year warranty

A magno flow filter

- that was £3,300 all in , removing old and disposing, of old tank, boiler and all other rubbish , flush out, new water treatment

so not as much as you are having - no change to any of the existing radiators

The valiant is our plumbers preferred boiler and also will convert to hydrogen if thats how the gas changes go in future - but i know the govenement have now stopped research apparently

anyway - best thing we have done for the tap/showers etc

Thanks for providing that info! Very useful to know and similar to our quote then. We're not changing the radiators, only adding TRVs, which are not a big cost I believe but for our quote is included, so yes still more economical than yours. That's reassuring to know I've been given a good deal.

I can only echo some of the others on this, if the Boiler is firing up as you describe, then the fault is elsewhere. Given you have no heating or hot water, my first instinct would be the pump has failed. Get recommendations for someone to have a look, I'd get them to service the Boiler at the same time, and go from there.

It will be a lot cheaper than a Boiler replacement in the short term at least provided the Boiler doesn't have any major issues.

Thanks. I think even if someone can fix it or find the parts, it'll likely cost £3-500 or thereabouts. If there are issues in the future I can't find anyone local and because it's such an old boiler, they will say 'parts are hard to find etc'. From my research, there does seem to be a market but I think it's a bit niche.

I know it's one of those 'spend more disproportionately relative to an easy fix (if there is one)' for the piece of mind thing..

What model is your current boiler?

Potterton Netaheat Electronic.

 

[oldbuffer]

1. The hot water flow will be the pipe coming out of the boiler top right. Likely to be a 28 mm diameter pipe, but could possibly be 22 mm.
2. If its a 6/10, 16/22 or 10/16 model of the Netaheat Electronic you may well have a purely gravity (un-pumped) hot water system and a pumped central heating system. In either case, that flow pipe should get hot when the boiler is on.
3. These are old boilers designed principally for gravity hot water. More recently trained engineers may not be familiar with their mode of operation.

 

[RandomGrinch]

Has the heating actually worked, since the Nest was installed?

 

[oldbuffer]

Sorry, should be top left.

 

[attackon]

1. The hot water flow will be the pipe coming out of the boiler top right. Likely to be a 28 mm diameter pipe, but could possibly be 22 mm.
2. If its a 6/10, 16/22 or 10/16 model of the Netaheat Electronic you may well have a purely gravity (un-pumped) hot water system and a pumped central heating system. In either case, that flow pipe should get hot when the boiler is on.
3. These are old boilers designed principally for gravity hot water. More recently trained engineers may not be familiar with their mode of operation.

Both pipe above the boiler do not warm up when turning on the boiler on (an hour)

Has the heating actually worked, since the Nest was installed?

Yes everything worked fine from day 1 in November up until last week. I spoke to the Nest engineer to trouble shoot some things over the phone and he can't see anything wrong with it. I can turn on the boiler like a switch on my phone and it does exactly that.

 

[ChrisJP]

If you can see and hear the boiler firing up, but there is no central heating or hot water, it HAS to be a fault outside the boiler. It could be the circulating pump or it could be the 3-way motorised valve (that diverts hot water between the central heating and hot water circuits). Or it's possible that there are two seperate 2-way valves, one on the hot water and one on the central heating circuits. Still, it's unlikely that 2 valves would fail at the same time, so my money's on a jammed 3-way valve that is stopping all water circulation.
While replacing the boiler may still be a good idea if the existing one is old, be aware that this is very unlikely to fix your problem.