Replacing single socket with double - attaching box to wall.

[LeeJC]

You can always ring Napit or the NICEIC And check

Yes it does............... when you adding more equipment that can introduce more D.C leakage that could blind the Type AC rcd and stop it working............Your giving Bad advice

You're off your head mate.

Can you point me to the regulation in BS 7671 or the NICEIC/Napit advice that says if you plug an 8 way extension cable to it and connect 8 high DC leakage devices to it you must change a breaker in your consumer unit...............

Why is this advice not given on all widely available regulated extension cables with more than one output!!! What have we done!!!! Think of the children!!!!

 

[Nope]

You're off your head mate.

Can you point me to the regulation in BS 7671 or the NICEIC/Napit advice that says if you plug an 8 way extension cable to it and connect 8 high DC leakage devices to it you must change a breaker in your consumer unit...............

Why is this advice not given on all widely available regulated extension cables with more than one output!!! What have we done!!!! Think of the children!!!!

And I’m going to hastily add that so far only 1 person has told me I need a Type A RCD. Everyone else has said it will be fine.

 

[LeeJC]

I would crack on mate, with the usual application of safety sense.
Isolate, confirm circuit dead before putting your tip (of the screwdriver) anywhere near the socket outlet. My Kitchen has outlets on both the upper and lower floor final rings.
I hope you've got enough cable slack available, and can confirm the cable zoning before you start drilling.

Good Luck

 

[Nope]

I would crack on mate, with the usual application of safety sense.
Isolate, confirm circuit dead before putting your tip (of the screwdriver) anywhere near the socket outlet. My Kitchen has outlets on both the upper and lower floor final rings.
I hope you've got enough cable slack available, and can confirm the cable zoning before you start drilling.

Good Luck

Thanks. I will let you all know how it turns out.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

And I’m going to hastily add that so far only 1 person has told me I need a Type A RCD. Everyone else has said it will be fine.

I'm not qualified to say about the need or not for a Type A RCD, but in simple terms.

Are you doing anything different, in effect, to plugging in an extension lead and using that? Follow the advice of the many qualified people saying its ok.

 

[Nope]

I'm not qualified to say about the need or not for a Type A RCD, but in simple terms.

Are you doing anything different, in effect, to plugging in an extension lead and using that? Follow the advice of the many qualified people saying its ok.

Well I’m removing two single sockets and replacing them with double sockets. Not sure how “different” you consider that to be, but I will certainly follow the advice of those more qualified than me!

 

[SUNRAY]

FWIW I'd suggest that replacing a single socket (by design limited to one 13A fuse) with a 3 or 4 way socket converter which includes a 13A fuse, still counts as one point. I'd further suggest that as this requires no drilling or chiselling etc this would sensibly come under maintenance / replacement and not require any certificates/notification etc. As others have said it's no different to plugging in a 4 way extension lead.

 

[Nope]

FWIW I'd suggest that replacing a single socket (by design limited to one 13A fuse) with a 3 or 4 way socket converter which includes a 13A fuse, still counts as one point. I'd further suggest that as this requires no drilling or chiselling etc this would sensibly come under maintenance / replacement and not require any certificates/notification etc. As others have said it's no different to plugging in a 4 way extension lead.

But would the same apply if I am not using socket converters but will instead be using double sockets and surface boxes?

 

[LeeJC]

Currently I think what Sunray is saying is that with a single socket outlet the max you could load that socket to would be 13Amps.
If you plug an extension cable in with 4 outlets the maximum that single socket can provide is 13 Amps as fused by the plug on the extension cable.

What you're doing by adding an additional socket or 2 sockets in the case of going from a pair of singles to a pair of doubles is theoretically increasing the maximum load on that feed to 52 Amps. However that's where the design of the installation of the property comes into play.
The cable will be designed for a maximum current carrying capacity, and the associated fuse/breaker shall be appropriate to protect the cable from excessive currents which may result in excessive heat/combustion.

So although you theoretically could put 13 Amp loads into every outlet, your Consumer unit will protect the cabling infrastructure well below the 52 Amps. What your maximum allowable load will be is determined by you cable dimensions, this is then reduced for margin by your fuse/breaker.

Nothing you are doing is altering the characteristics of your installation, these limits will still apply.
If you were to take out a fuse/breaker and replace it with a higher current one because you thought it was necessary to allow full utilisation of the additional outlets then quite a few of us would have said................................... NO! Don't do that

 

[Nope]

Currently I think what Sunray is saying is that with a single socket outlet the max you could load that socket to would be 13Amps.
If you plug an extension cable in with 4 outlets the maximum that single socket can provide is 13 Amps as fused by the plug on the extension cable.

What you're doing by adding an additional socket or 2 sockets in the case of going from a pair of singles to a pair of doubles is theoretically increasing the maximum load on that feed to 52 Amps. However that's where the design of the installation of the property comes into play.
The cable will be designed for a maximum current carrying capacity, and the associated fuse/breaker shall be appropriate to protect the cable from excessive currents which may result in excessive heat/combustion.

So although you theoretically could put 13 Amp loads into every outlet, your Consumer unit will protect the cabling infrastructure well below the 52 Amps. What your maximum allowable load will be is determined by you cable dimensions, this is then reduced for margin by your fuse/breaker.

Nothing you are doing is altering the characteristics of your installation, these limits will still apply.
If you were to take out a fuse/breaker and replace it with a higher current one because you thought it was necessary to allow full utilisation of the additional outlets then quite a few of us would have said................................... NO! Don't do that

Thanks. Very helpful. I’m relieved to know that I’m not about to do anything stupid or dangerous or both!!

 

[Murdochcat]

You can always ring Napit or the NICEIC And check

Yes it does............... when you adding more equipment that can introduce more D.C leakage that could blind the Type AC rcd and stop it working............Your giving Bad advice

I’m a NAPIT spark and they often get things wrong

There is no way a minor change to an accessory requires any change to the consumer unit

 

[LeeJC]

Biggest concerns around a single to double socket conversion for me are.....
Ensure Undamaged cable
Ensure Appropriate slack for wiring new socket (the lugs may not be in the same location/orientation as your single).
Ensuring you have stripped the inner insulation as per instructions and that all conductors (Live/Neutral and CPC) are well tightened into the socket outlet (and in the right locations).

Biggest risk to a DIYer doing this other than forgetting to isolate is not inserting and tightening down the retaining screws on the conductors correctly. For me anyway.

 

[SUNRAY]

One of the features of the socket converters is the part with the terminals sits within the existing back box so the length of the wiring is not normally a problem, of course the caveat being I have no insight to your sockets.


adding a double patress (Surface box) on the front of the existing backbox means you have the whole of the empty backbox available to add connectors if you find you have a need for them.

 

[Nope]

Biggest concerns around a single to double socket conversion for me are.....
Ensure Undamaged cable
Ensure Appropriate slack for wiring new socket (the lugs may not be in the same location/orientation as your single).
Ensuring you have stripped the inner insulation as per instructions and that all conductors (Live/Neutral and CPC) are well tightened into the socket outlet (and in the right locations).

Biggest risk to a DIYer doing this other than forgetting to isolate is not inserting and tightening down the retaining screws on the conductors correctly. For me anyway.

Well thank you. That’s a useful checklist for me.

 

[SUNRAY]

But would the same apply if I am not using socket converters but will instead be using double sockets and surface boxes?

A lot depends on any existing paperwork, some list circuits by numbers of sockets, some by locations, some by points (usually corresponds to number of potential 13A fuses) So for example a circuit containing 5 single and 5 double sockets could be 10 locations, 10 sockets or 15 sockets, 15 points. Converting 2 singles to 2 doubles could make that 10 locations, 10 sockets or 17 sockets, 17 points whereas using converters 10 locations, 10 sockets or 17 sockets(although one could argue this), 15 points.

My argument would be that not increasing the fuse count indicates no changes have been made.
Be aware I am not saying you must not fit double sockets but as has been said that can more easily be described as alteration/additional