Reusing Hep2o fittings

[Albumen]

I'm about to embark on a bit of pipe replacement/rationalising/tidying up.

Cold supply, DHW, CH.

Some is in copper, some in Hep2O, the 'old' grey type.

At a couple of points I'll have to disconnect some Hep2O fittings and reuse them, like this:

Where the CH flow and return come through a wall, I'll have to disconnect a 90 deg elbow, rotate it through about 90 degrees and reconnect.

Similarly where the 15mm hot and cold come through a wall, I'll have to take a couple of 90 deg elbows off and replace them with Ts.

These fittings are very close to the wall.

Questions:

1. Is it OK just to loosen a Hep2O fitting and turn it?

2. Where I actually take a pipe out of a fitting the Hepworths manual talks about replacing the O ring, wedge and wedge support ring. This is old grey Hep2O. Do plumbers merchants still stock these?

Many thanks.

 

[smeghead12]

I'm about to embark on a bit of pipe replacement/rationalising/tidying up.

Cold supply, DHW, CH.

Some is in copper, some in Hep2O, the 'old' grey type.

At a couple of points I'll have to disconnect some Hep2O fittings and reuse them, like this:

Where the CH flow and return come through a wall, I'll have to disconnect a 90 deg elbow, rotate it through about 90 degrees and reconnect.

Similarly where the 15mm hot and cold come through a wall, I'll have to take a couple of 90 deg elbows off and replace them with Ts.

These fittings are very close to the wall.

Questions:

1. Is it OK just to loosen a Hep2O fitting and turn it?

2. Where I actually take a pipe out of a fitting the Hepworths manual talks about replacing the O ring, wedge and wedge support ring. This is old grey Hep2O. Do plumbers merchants still stock these?

Many thanks.

1 yes ok to turn fitting
2 no they dont stock the grey hep2o , just the new white which is not selling well because plumbers dont like them , you can re-use what u have ,but means sliding the grab ring so u dont bend the teeth the wrong way but not worth the risk or hassle , just buy polyplumb grey hep fittings instead or speed fit - both are demountable , on copper i like sprint 2 copper pushfit fittings but these are not demountable but cheaper and neater looking , dont forget to use a insert on plastic pipe , tony

 

[Albumen]

Thanks Tony.

Yes, after I posted I thought, 'why am I thinking about reusing the fitting'.

Partly because these are so close to the wall that it might be difficult to get new ones on. But the plumbers got the current ones on so must be possible.

So are all the various push fit plastic systems compatible? Presumably they are all designed around the same external pipe diameter? So if it's 15mm, for instance, the couplings are expecting pipes with a 15mm external diameter, and doesn't really care what it's made of.

Sorry to sound like such a beginner. I've actually done plenty of plumbing, cold, DHW and CH, but I've always used soldered copper, which I'm fairly confident about. I'd prefer to do this in copper too.

But on this job I've got to join up to existing plastic, and I think I'll use plastic for the new as well. 2 reasons:

1. The new pipework needs to be clipped close to a wall, but where it's joining to existing is a mess. If I try to do it in copper there will have to be lots of slight S shaped bends to get it neat. And if I used copper it would involve lots of soldering in a very confined sub floor, next to gas pipes.

2. This involves ALL the water in the house. Cold supply, including replacing stop cock, DHW and both CH. So I've got to close down at the stop cock in the street. Cut out all the pipes, do a little bit of building and replace the pipes neater. I'll be really up against it time wise.

 

[Agile]

It is almost impossible to get grab rings off in the direction of the joint without damaging them.

But if you cut the pipe behind the joint then they will usually slide off and can be reused.

But reused they are less secure and potentially at risk of failing. I would reuse one for heating at home but not for a customer or for mains water where the pressure can get quite high.

Tony

 

[Albumen]

Thanks Tonies (plural of Tony?). I appreciate the advice.

Where the plastic pipes come through the wall there's not much pipe to play with, so I can't really cut any off. If I just unscrew the existing grey Hep2O fittings and pull, they'll come off, yes? And I can get the O ring etc. off if I'm not bothered about damaging it? The only thing I really don't want to damage is the existing pipe, because that's what the new fitting will be going on to. It looks like this at the moment:

I know, neat isn't it?. NOT my work. Yes, the copper in the middle of that is gas (unsleeved) , so there's a limit to how much bashing about I want to do. So will what I want to do there be possible? How much pressure do I have to use pushing the fittings on, given that I can't take hold of the pipe?

 

[Agile]

You will not be able to just pull in the direction of the joint. The grab ring does just that.

The only way to get it off is to bend each tooth upwards away from the pipe. Or to cut it with good cutters.

I dont immediately see what you are hoping to achieve.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. Sorry if I'm not explaining myself very well.

All 4 of those plastic pipes are going to be re-routed in some way or other.

The 22mm for example. They are CH F&R. So I'm thinking that I unscrew the Hep2O fitting, on the side nearest the wall, and pull the fitting away. That will leave me with a pipe end with an O ring and a grab ring on it, yes? That's where I do the bendy toothy thing you mention, yes? Though I think Hep2O make a tool, but if this is discontinued stuff I daresay unobtainable.

Then put a new Speedfit 90 deg onto that, facing leftward, and run my new pipework into that.

In the case of the CH I could cut it where it comes through the floor, turn it to the left and use straight couplers. But ugly.

The 15 mm H&C definitely need to be changed to Ts though, unless I want something really really ugly.

 

[SandyLyon]

There a 4 different versions of Hep2o, so have you actually undone a fitting to see what components are inside.

The first version, launched in the late 70's (firstly as Bartol then as the Hep2o brand) had an all metal grab ring that was designed to be used only once. If the fitting was to be re-used, the old grab ring had to be removed and a new one fitted. It was also a "O" ring first configuration, this was more prone to installer insertion issues. The Grey Polyplumb fitting is a "clone" of this fitting.

In the 2nd and 3rd versions, Hepworth changed the design to a Grip First fitting, and changed the all metal grab ring to a plastic "Grab Wedge" with metal teeth.
This was White in the 2nd version and Green in the 3rd. There was a removal tool available and all components could be re-used.

The new White (4th) version is still demountable with the use of a tool, some plumbers say the don't like this feature but is is a major plus point as it prevents people tampering with it.

The first 3 are Grey and the latest is in White only, all carry a 50 year warranty.

So, if you have the 1st version, unless you you can get your hands on some old grab rings, you are going to struggle.

If it is the 2nd or 3rd version (White or Green Wedge) you should be ok, all components are re-usable and you should be able to pick up a couple of the Tees.

If you go down the route of using another brand i.e. Speedfit, Polyfit etc there are a couple of thing you need to be aware of:-

1. The "O" ring may sit on part of the pipe that has previously been scored by the teeth on the old grab ring (or when the old ring is removed) if this happens, it could lead to the fitting "weeping".

2. Although all systems are to BS and are15mm, there are major differences in the way the fittings are designed, one of the main one's is the pipe support sleeve, some are stainless steel some plastic and others have "O" rings built in, but they are designed to work with their own pipe / fitting.
And for that reason each manufacturer will only guarantee either their own system or on to copper.

Just a thought, are the pipes not accessible on the other side of the wall, where you could feed new 22mm and 15mm pipes through the wall and connect with new fittings

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. Can I unscrew an existing fitting? Everything's 'live' at the moment.

I imagine it's 2nd or 3rd generation. It's grey, and was fitted (by somebody else) about 5 years ago. I have some Hep2O that I bought, but never used, shortly after, and that's got green grabby things.

I'm actually thinking about a semi temporary arrangement:

The 2 22mm elbows, as per photo. Cutting the pipe off where it comes through the floor boards. Loosening the elbow on the joint, and turning the whole thing through 90 degrees clockwise. Will it turn if I just loosen the fitting?

And T into the H&C, off the photo.

Thing is, that will give me Hep2O pipes going into SpeedFit fittings, if I decide to change. Presumably old Hep2O works with new Hep2O? So I could just stick with that.

The pipes are accessible on the other side of the wall, but they then go through another wall. All nicely cemented in (with not sleeving of the gas, grrrr). So it gets really messy to free them up.

 

[SandyLyon]

Thanks. Can I unscrew an existing fitting? Everything's 'live' at the moment.

I have done it myself, but if you aren't sure what you are doing I wouldn't reccommend it

I imagine it's 2nd or 3rd generation. It's grey, and was fitted (by somebody else) about 5 years ago. I have some Hep2O that I bought, but never used, shortly after, and that's got green grabby things.

Then you should be able to re-use the existing components and use your stock, I still have some of the 3rd style fittings if you need any let me know what your short of. Don't be tempted to swop the internal components between versions

The 2 22mm elbows, as per photo. Cutting the pipe off where it comes through the floor boards. Loosening the elbow on the joint, and turning the whole thing through 90 degrees clockwise. Will it turn if I just loosen the fitting

Because it works on an "O" ring, you can rotate the fittings without having to loosen / undo them

Thing is, that will give me Hep2O pipes going into SpeedFit fittings, if I decide to change. Presumably old Hep2O works with new Hep2O? So I could just stick with that.

The new version of Hep2o is fully compatable with all the previous versions and the 50 year warranty is valid

 

[Albumen]

Thanks for that. Yes, it's green grabber, I just unscrewed one, carefully. After shutting off the stopcock.

Yes, I found an elbow I've not used, put a bit of copper into it, screwed it together. Yes, can still rotate. Why have i wasted all this time on a top Rothenburger Torch and flux and wire wool and learning to solder?

Once you take the fitting apart though there doesn't seem to be any way to get that green thing off the pipe though.

But Plan B (plan? there's a plan?) is looking better and better.

 

[SandyLyon]

There is a green wedge removal tool, I'm sure I have some spare 15mm and 22mm ones knocking about in the garage. I will check tommorrow, if I have you are welcome to them.

You can ease them off without a tool, use both hands, either side of the wedge, using your finger nails gently "Waggle" the wedge to the end of the pipe. Don't force it or you can crack the green plastic.

Check there is no damage to the wedge, reassemble the components taking care to get them in the right order. "O" ring goes in first, then the grey plastic "bucket" finally the green wedge (make sure the slots are facing towards you) Then screw the cap back on.

If you do get the green wedge in the wrong way it will be very difficult to push the pipe in and if you do get the pipe in it will not grip the pipe.
It's good practice to give the pipe a tug back to check that the teeth are holding.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. Just tested that with my bit of copper that I'd put into a 15mm fitting. Yes, but of finger nail tweaking got it off. I'm not bothered, that much, about keeping the fitting. But I'm just wondering about the marks it leaves as you tweak it off the pipe. It's scored this copper a bit. If it did that to plastic might it make a leak at the 'O' ring.?

When you say spare, do you mean removal tool or green wedges?

I'll see if I can find any merchants round here who sell them, but as it's old tech I'm thinking maybe not.

 

[SandyLyon]

I have a box in the lock up with a number of the V3 fittings in, not sure what I have in there. So I will have some fittings, plenty of the Green Wedges and I think I have a couple of the Green Wedge removal tools as well.

If your stuck for anything let me know and I'll check for you, I don't think any merchants will carry any V3 as the new one has been out for a couple of years now.

As for the marks on the pipe, it should be ok, but the tool opens the wedge slightly so the teeth don't score the pipe.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. I've just had a look and plumbase still sell them and there's some on ebay. Thing is I'm starting this Thursday, and demounting those fitting is one of the first jobs I have to do. Or it's not the first job I have to do, but I have to try it first. If for some reason I can't do it I can't proceed with the rest of the job.

I can still work round it I think, and tidy it up later. Just that I'll have wasted a couple of fittings in the meantime.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate that.

Mike.