Rewire questions

That's very interesting but would I be wrong in thinking it really doesn't make much sense? - the basic principle, that is; not your post. :)
Which part?



He was adamant that the brief for the study group was to develop the best domestic wiring system in the world.
Then no one else (apart from some colonies) uses it.
Among the problems they tried to overcome were: the inflexibility of the then common system of radials to each socket-outlet (usually one per room), the conductor being sized for the single socket; the voltage drop on sockets furthest from the fuseboard in the meter cupboard;
That was the inadequacies of the then methods; they could have been addressed without inventing the ring.

the unavailability that could result from a single conductor breakage;
That results in danger of cable overload.

the dependence of the ADS on a single cpc;
Is that a valid reason considering the other circuits and the rest of the world.

the number of fuses required for a system using a separate fuse for each socket;
Again, that's not because it is not a ring. One large capacity radial will achieve the same.

The solution to these problems was the ring final, that had two sources of current at each accessory, as well as a duplicated cpc.
You can connect another cable if you want without the restrictions of our ring circuits.
A little later it was realised that the conductors being effectively in parallel, their CSA could be reduced somewhat.
Not really - only with unnecessary restrictions.
I shall use metric sizes:
A 30A ring with BS3036 fuse and no restrictions (to achieve the above with no hazard) would require 41A cable - 6mm².
To achieve a ring with 30A fuse and 2.5mm² (total CCC of 54A), reduced to 39A because of the fuse was further reduced Half of 39 - near enough the 20A minimum.

The only valid reason for rings seems to be the oft-quoted saving in copper - not even that with MCBs

the Ministry of Works requested the installations committee of the IEE to look at reducing the amount of copper required by a further CSA reduction of the conductors, to about 2/3 of the CSA that would seem at first sight to be necessary.
That has also been the case with radials so not a reason for a ring.

The risk of an open-circuit allowing the CCC of the conductors to be exceeded was considered to be acceptable, given the relatively small loads that were common at the time, and the considerable safety margin built in to the CCC tables for conductors.
That could also have been done with radials.
 
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the Ministry of Works requested the installations committee of the IEE to look at reducing the amount of copper required by a further CSA reduction of the conductors, to about 2/3 of the CSA that would seem at first sight to be necessary.
That has also been the case with radials so not a reason for a ring.
Can you explain? I don't get that bit!

Kind Regards, John
 
Then no one else (apart from some colonies) uses it.
It is dependent on the use of fused plugs, which have not been adopted in most other countries. That doesn't mean they are not good.
That was the inadequacies of the then methods; they could have been addressed without inventing the ring.
No doubt, but it seems they chose to invent the ring instead.
That results in danger of cable overload.
Perhaps they considered that risk to be acceptable.
Again, that's not because it is not a ring. One large capacity radial will achieve the same.
True, at the expense of voltage drop and lack of fault tolerance.
You can connect another cable if you want without the restrictions of our ring circuits.
Not sure I understand that.
A 30A ring with BS3036 fuse and no restrictions (to achieve the above with no hazard) would require 41A cable - 6mm²
Yes, the metric equivalent to the original design might well be 6mm².
That has also been the case with radials so not a reason for a ring.
Perhaps it was judged to be a good reason at the time.

I wasn't part of the discussion, which started some years before I was born. I'm just reiterating what I was told by someone who was there at the time, and who incidentally was a fine electrical engineer.
 
the Ministry of Works requested the installations committee of the IEE to look at reducing the amount of copper required by a further CSA reduction of the conductors, to about 2/3 of the CSA that would seem at first sight to be necessary.
That has also been the case with radials so not a reason for a ring.
Can you explain? I don't get that bit!
The CPCs are smaller than the lives in all T+E so it was not done because of the invention of, or for, the ring circuit.

Are you thinking that bit was not to do with the ring invention?

Maybe it is separate?
 
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Was T & E used before ring finals? Reduced size protective conductors are used in singles as well though, whatever the circuit topology. My post was in reference to the live conductors though, rather than the cpc.
 
The CPCs are smaller than the lives in all T+E so it was not done because of the invention of, or for, the ring circuit. Are you thinking that bit was not to do with the ring invention?
I'm confused. Nothing in what stillp wrote appeared to relate to the relative sizes of CPC and L/N conductors. He appeared to be talking about the 'dispensation' to allow (L&N) conductors in a ring to have about 2/3 of the CSA that would be necessary were they in a radial protected by the same OPD.

Kind Regards, John
 
Try reading my post again.
Ah, sorry, not sure how I missed that before. So under the original brief, the idea they came up with was basically redundancy and a circuit which would remain perfectly safe even in the event of a break, and it was only later that the idea of economizing on the cable resulted in that being compromised?
 
Oh, I'm sorry I misread it to be referring to the fact that the CPC of 2.5mm² is about 2/3 the csa of the live conductor.

If you are correct then it is further confusion as the minimum CCC for ring live conductors is 20A (20/0.725=27A, i.e.2.5mm²) but 1.5mm² could now (with MCBs) be used - albeit 2.5mm² is the minimum allowed and there are two of them.

If there were specific conductor sizes for a 30A radial at that time, what would it be? (30/0.725=41.4A, 4.5mm²?).
 
If you are correct then it is further confusion as the minimum CCC for ring live conductors is 20A (20/0.725=27A, i.e.2.5mm²) ....
Well, 20A CCC is 2/3 of the In of a 30A OPD. As you say, things could have been reviewed when MCBs came along, but that hasn't happened.

Kind Regards, John
 
Try reading my post again.
Ah, sorry, not sure how I missed that before. So under the original brief, the idea they came up with was basically redundancy and a circuit which would remain perfectly safe even in the event of a break, and it was only later that the idea of economizing on the cable resulted in that being compromised?
Yes, that's what I was told.
 
If there were specific conductor sizes for a 30A radial at that time, what would it be? (30/0.725=41.4A, 4.5mm²?).

7/.036 = 4.6 sq. mm.

Conversions for all the smaller cable sizes, metric equivalent rounded to 2 decimal places:

1/.044 = 0.98

3/.029 = 1.28
3/.036 = 1.97

7/.029 = 2.98
7/.036 = 4.60
7/.044 = 6.87
7/.052 = 9.59
7/.064 = 14.53
 
Thank you.

So, they could have had made to measure 30A radials and saved a lot of fuss and then when
MCBs arrived we could have replaced the fuse with 40A MCB.

They could also have made 3mm² and 4.5mm² cable instead of 2.5mm² and 4mm² respectively.
 
They could also have made 3mm² and 4.5mm² cable instead of 2.5mm² and 4mm² respectively.
And perhaps 2 instead of 1.5 sq. mm, it being a direct replacement for the once-common 3/.036 size. I always felt that the metric sizes could have been selected differently: How often is 2.5 a little too small, but you really don't want to go to the harder-to-handle 4 sq. mm, for example?

I do rather like the AWG sizes here, as #14 is near-enough 2 sq. mm and #12 about 3.3 sq. mm, conveniently larger than 2.5 but still more manageable than 4.0.
 
I'm really struggling to see how adopting a system in which a conductor breakage leaving the circuit such that the remaining cable carrying the full demand of the circuit could then easily be overloaded goes with a brief to develop "the best domestic wiring system in the world."
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