Rewiring query - post rewiring certification?

[jenm]

Hi - first post & I hope you can advise before we get ourselves into potential trouble:

We've just bought our first flat - 1900 build.

The wiring is not very good (as we discovered when some wet plaster fell on one of the dining-room sockets and knocked out the 3 adjoining rooms).

My father in law (an electronics engineer NOT an electrician) has offered to come over and 'sort the electrics out'.

I realise that we will need to make sure that the wiring conforms to new building regulations (sockets 18 inches up from the floor I believe) and while aesthetically I'm not happy about that I accept that these are the new regulations.

However - when we come to sell this flat in 3 years time will we be able to pay someone to come inspect the work that he has done & give us a certificate to certify it is okay. He has rewired both of the previous homes that he & his wife have lived in & is happy & competent to do the work but I want to find out the legalities.

So - is this a fools errand?

Will we be able to sell if he has done this work?

Do we have to have our sockets 18 in up the wall (they are currently in the skirting boards & we are replacing them - ideally I'd like them just above the skirtings)?

Is there anything else I should be considering (if post-work certification is possible how much does it cost approx?)

Apologies for the length of the post and thanks for any help / advice in advance.

jen

 

[dingbat]

Electrical work in England & Wales is governed by the building regulations. Search the Wiki section (See the tab at the top of the page?) for information about 'Part P'.

You do not have to use the new socket/switch height bands, but individual building control authorities have their own take on this. You will have to accept whatever your building inspector 'advises'.

 

[pcboffinuk]

Hi Jen,

Dingbat is correct and there is plenty of information in the wiki. but here's some simple thoughts to get you started.

There is nothing wrong with your father in law doing the work as long as he feels he is competent to install and (more importantly) test the work.

He will need to notify the Local Authority Building Control (LABC) in advance of starting work and you will have to pay their fee to inspect the work. In general the LABC will only certify that the work complies with building regulations and not give you the full certificates that you may want when it comes to selling the house - but each area is different so check with them first. Note that only some of the re-wiring work will come under their jurisdiction so what they provide will not be a proof of safety for the entire house.

There is nothing to stop your father in law completing the Electrical Installation Certificate that should accompany all the work, as long as he is competent to do so, and has the equipment to carry out the necessary tests. If he isn't, you will struggle to find a qualified spark who will put their name to the certificate if they haven't done the work or at least supervised it.

One way round that is to get a spark to do a Periodic Inspection Report, which is designed to check the state of existing wiring. However, the LABC may insist on seeing a full certificate for their inspection anyway in which case there would be no extra benefit in a PIR.

Its also worth noting that there is no actual requirement at the moment to provide an electrical certificate when selling a house, and I suspect very few older houses have one - it was going to be part of the much vaunted Home Information Pack but is no longer a requirement. I am sure any survey would suggest that the electrical wiring is inspected or certificates sought, but its then up to the buyer to insist or use it as a tool to reduce the price.

The main thing is to ensure the installation is done safely, and that LABC certify the bits they need to - the rest is then down to choice.

To agree with dingbat, the new socket/switch heights are only considered to be a requirement for new builds or complete refurbishments (and in fact are not laid down in law even then) but if you want LABC approval what they say goes so talk to them before fitting any as some are more reasonable than others.

Hope that helps,

Gavin

 

[jenm]

Thank you both for your advice so far.

I've been on to the Local Authority website & am making my way through the Part P guidelines from the wiki.

I'll also be printing both of your responses out to bring home to my other half.

The good news seems to be that we don't have to have the sockets halfway up the wall!!

Jen

 

[Chri5]

You do not have to use the new socket/switch height bands, but individual building control authorities have their own take on this. You will have to accept whatever your building inspector 'advises'.

Not strictly true, if it's a re-wire and providing the existing socket and switch locations are safe then a re-wire maybe done 'like for like'.

Same applies to cable routes through joists. If holes exist and are safe then they maybe re-used.

The logic being that adding correctly placed holes per current regulations will add further weakness to a joist that already has holes drilled 30 years ago.

I had exactly this conversation with an Enfield BC guy a few weeks ago and he conceded that the switch / socket height (per the newer regs) is for NEW BUILDS, and for fully refurbished houses where PRACTICAL.

A rewire is outside that scope.

There's been some changes in the last few years, part P to start with.

Earthing bonding, cable colours, RCD use, tail sizes. If your father in law does do the work, tell him to buy, read and digest

or the

Rumour has it that the Domestic Electrical Install Guide may well be amended and adopted as the 'new' On site guide.

Both are similar, the OSG being more detailed / matched to the BS 7671 / 16th ed manual and having more table references in the appendixes.


I would also suggest that you consider the paperwork you will need to supply in 3 years when you sell up/ The HIP- Home Info Pack will be matured by then and any new purchaser will expect you to back up the work done via certification.

Maybe you could seek out a spark with an agreement to offer a collaborative project. The sparks doing all terminations, tests and consumer unit works. Your man and the FiL doing the labour?

Part P DISQ expressly mentions that a Part P cert should only be used for your own work. 'Own' is subject to interpretation, and some see this as 'being in control of all work' which they would be.

 

[dingbat]

You do not have to use the new socket/switch height bands, but individual building control authorities have their own take on this. You will have to accept whatever your building inspector 'advises'.

Not strictly true, if it's a re-wire and providing the existing socket and switch locations are safe then a re-wire maybe done 'like for like'.

Woah there, Chri5. It's exactly true.

The Part M recommended heights do not apply to refurbs and rewires, however, local authority building control have the authority to impose their own interpretation of the building regs. If you are involving LABC then you must make sure what you do is acceptable to them... often 'them' means a single building inspector. In my area an environmental health inspector decides what is and what isn't acceptable... and he insists on Part M heights regardless of all the legal arguments I have presented to him... and his boss... and his boss's boss.

Part P DISQ expressly mentions that a Part P cert should only be used for your own work. 'Own' is subject to interpretation, and some see this as 'being in control of all work' which they would be.

I am teaching this course next week and I certainly will not be using such inaccurate terminology. Chri5, you need to boff up on what's what.

The installer issues an EIC. By one of two routes a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate is issued. There is no such thing as a 'Part P Certificate'.

 

[ColJack]

part M was designed for public buildings or dwellings where a disabled person ( wheelchair bound ) might reasonably live..

If he lives in a 1st floor flat with no lift access then it's not unreasonable to assume that a disabled person would not live there...

also, I always wondered that if sockets are 450 from the floor because people in wheelchairs can't get down to plug something it, then what do they do when the plug itself is lying on the floor?

 

[dingbat]

ColJack, you really should read Aproved Document M before you make such assertions.

I regularly rewire domestic properties which are entirely unsuitable for use by persons with mobility disabilities, yet the local authority inspectors absolutely insist - to the extent of withholding payment - on the Part M recommended heights for accessories.

 

[plugwash]

well as the people commisioning the work (i am assuming from your coment about witholding payment that this relates to local authority owned housing) that would indeed by thier parogative to do just the same as a customer can insist on steel conduit for ease of modification or RCD sockets to reduce the need for access to the DB or compliance with BS7671 or whatever else they desire that is not required by law.

the first thing i notice on reading approved document part M is that like approved document P it explicitly disclaims its own authority but even ignoring that is building control departments unfortunately tend to.

page 11 of http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADM_2004.pdf clearly states that it does not apply to extentions or material alterations to dwellings provided things are made no less satisfactory than they were before.

unfortunately building control do indeed often screw arround with the regs and short of taking them to court i don't belive there is much you can do about it when they do (this of course assumes they are involved in the first place which for a rewire by a part P self cert scheme member they generally won't be beyond archiving the certificates somewhere)

 

[dingbat]

i am assuming from your coment about witholding payment that this relates to local authority owned housing..

No, not quite. These are privately-owned houses but with grant assistance for asbestos clearance, which involves a full refurb. (They are in an area of Leeds where the asbestos used to fall like snow from the nearby factory.)

Even though I self-certify the work, because it is part of a full refurb, it gets inspected, but, peculiarly, it's actually one particular environmental health inspector, rather than a building inspector, who insists on sockets and switches at this height, despite the fact that these homes will be reoccupied by the owners, many of whom are really unhappy to find all their sockets at knee height!

 

[pcboffinuk]

sounds like a typical jumped up jobsworth who likes wielding power.

Of course there is nothing preventing you making a private arrangement with the householder to return after the inspection and move the sockets down, for a small fee

It does seem to show the problem with all the 'regs' - because they are not explicitly worded it comes down to one person's interpretation of them.

I've recently been reading the US National Electrical Code which seems much more explicit and less open to problems like this.

Some of the differences are interesting though - it REQUIRES receptacles in bathrooms within 900mm of each basin

Gavin

 

[barera]

yes but dont forget they are dealing with only 110V!!

 

[alexcantley]

i am an electrician and what amazes and BORES me to tears is how people can write like 50 pages on something as stupid as where you would drill holes in a joist or some other rubbish like inspection and testing

years ago i said to my gaffer arent you going to test that house and he said if the breaker stays on its fine and do you know something he is actually right

if i rewire a house i make sure all connections are tight and the cables are the right size and are not run in stupid places why would i need a book to tell me you drill a hole in the center of joists so people cant put nails throught them duhhhhhhh

how many times has anyone rewired a flat AND the breakers have stayed on only to find out that actually the readings arent right and they have to strip it out and do it again

how many people have sat down and done formulas to work out how many circuits you can put in a trunking you use your common sense obviously if you cant close the trunking theres to many in there

ill tell you something inspection and testing part p niceic is all a lot of bull
dreamt up by people who would like theyre job to be a lot more technical than it actually is or let me guess to make more money either out of the public or electricians im not niceic registered does that mean my grade card doesnt count

its quite simple to get a safe job USE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN

 

[kkynaston]

Well alexcantley I suppose it is your first post but you've opened up an 18 month old thread

 

[Spark123]

1) Inspection and testing is not a waste of time.
2) I carry out the necessary I&T before energizing and twice recently I have found problems - one of which wouldn't pop a breaker (L&N reversal.)
3) You should take a look at the date before replying to old posts.