Ring main measures 600R

[securespark]

No good

What is the Rn?

Sorry typing with baby on lap

Martin

You mad? That's ridiculous!

Don't you know your priorities?

Chuck the baby on the floor and start paying more attention....

 

[JBPElectrics]

Now after making an idiot of myself on another thread I shoud be laying low!,

However, I think you are now realising what you have there is a complete lash up and is down right dangerous.

You need to get the electrician back to address the problems being mentioned here.

Unprotected circuits on the TT system, no main bonding, missing CPCs? may be old lighting and class 2 fittings, a ring fault and who knows what else??

CBW

 

[flameport]

Those three circuits on the right are dangerous
If a fault occurs, exposed metal parts of lights, switches or anything plugged in to the sockets will become live, and the circuit breakers will NOT trip.
The live parts will be capable of causing serious injury or death to anyone who touches them. Given that there are already faults on the socket circuit, this situation is not unlikely - and even worse, a fault on one of these circuits could result in the earth wires of the other circuits becoming live as well.

Whoever installed that mess is totally imcompetent.

I was made aware that there is a need for earth wires to be fitted to gas and water pipes.

Those wires are an essential safety feature and the consumer unit should not be installed without them.

You need to get a competent electrician in immediately to sort out these problems.

 

[brackers99]

The picture:

Untitled

• brackers99
• 23 Jan 2010
• 1

As for the CU - what are the 3 circuits to the right, which have no RCD protection?

The electrician stated that he put the lighting circuits on the unprotected side to ensure there is always light available in the event of a trip and that it is down to the electrician's discretion, whether or not this is done. Is this acceptable practice?

 

[brackers99]

I was made aware that there is a need for earth wires to be fitted to gas and water pipes.

Those wires are an essential safety feature and the consumer unit should not be installed without them.

Does the electrician have to install earth wires to water and gas pipes as part of fitting the CU unit, as he says this would be a seperate job. He has however, bonded pipes in bathroom and airing cupboard.

 

[EdwardCurrent]

Hello Brackers99.

It looks/sounds to me like your electrician is not working to the latest regs maybe ?. ops.

The non protected circuits are not cabled (clipped) 'surface' I take it ?

The main bonding conductors should be in place before any work takes place, and need to be installed before the testing and inspection is carried out.

Regards
Ed.

 

[brackers99]

Clearly the ring is not continuous, so there are one or more breaks/loose connections somewhere.

I have removed all sockets to check for loose wires etc, but have not found anything. How do I find where the break in the ring is without taking up every floorboard in each room?

The ring could have been like this for years, with a previous owner disconnecting something without knowing.

Also, if the connection is intermittant, the electrician could have had a good reading when he did the resistance checks and therefore assumed the ring to be okay.

 

[EdwardCurrent]

Hello,
If you are competant to do so.
It is possible to 'split' the circuit down into parts. You could disconnect every accessory on the circuit and measure/meter each leg individually as a last resort ?. This will show you how the circuit is wired and hopefully where the fault is.

Best get the original spark back really and let him know that you are aware of these faults.

Keep us posted,

Regards

Ed

 

[brackers99]

Hello,
If you are competant to do so.
It is possible to 'split' the circuit down into parts. You could disconnect every accessory on the circuit and measure/meter each leg individually as a last resort ?. This will show you how the circuit is wired and hopefully where the fault is.

Best get the original spark back really and let him know that you are aware of these faults.

Keep us posted,

Regards

Ed

Thanks. I have just checked out the kitchen wiring and it is not a ring circuit. The supply is from one cable that comes from the faulty ring circuit and spurs off to lots of sockets in the kitchen and garage. I can make a guess that someone has broken into the ring and not made a return. This would explain why the microwave light goes dim, or the hood extractor fan speed slows when the dishwasher element comes on or the kettle is on. The upstairs, kitchen and garage is all on this broken ring!

I have requested the electrician return and fix the kitchen wiring, which I know will be fairly expensive, but at least it will be safe. The kitchen pretty much needs rewiring from fresh, but I need to renew the kitchen and cannot afford to at present. I am going to have to have the kitchen rewired, only to have it rewired again when I get the kitchen replaced!

 

[oharaf]

ARE YOU SURE you want the same electrician??? He has messed up the original cu change, probably falsified the certificate (you did get one??) left you with a dangerous install and had the cheek to charge you for it.

Get him back to rectify his mistakes, check he is registered at www.competentperson.co.uk if not report him then engage another sparks to do any further works and check over the cu install

 

[Hibbo]

Brackers, I don't post here much, but I feel moved to do so after reading your thread.

Going on the information you've provided, your installation is EXTREMELY dangerous!

On a TT installation (earth rod) the Earth Fault Loop Impedance is relatively high compared to a TN system. If we say your installation has a typical TT EFLI of 23ohms (to keep the maths simple) and a live conductor comes in to contact with an earthed metallic part, ohms law tells us that a fault current of 230v/23ohms=10amps will flow. As you can see, this isn't enough to blow a 13A fuse, never mind a B32 MCB. It is for this reason that all TT installations MUST be RCD protected - the whole installation. This isn't a new thing either, and has nothing to do with the 17th edition's calls for 30mA RCD protection on nearly everything. Normally a TT installation will have a 100mA RCD as a main switch - if yours defintately doesn't have an external RCD/ELCB, then you're in very real danger because whilst that fault current is flowing, ALL earthed parts of your installation will be at 230v!

This is even more worrying in your case in that your 'electrician' KNEW you had a live-earth fault (as it was causing the 30mA RCD to trip). Not only that, but there's also the lack of main bonding to the incoming gas/water pipes. If you had main bonding, when all the earthed metallic parts rise to 230v due to your earth fault (which you DO have because the RCD was tripping!) - everything else that was bonded would also be at 230v. Not great, but there'd then be no potential differnce between an earthed part and the kitchen taps etc. Without any bonding, the earthed parts will be at 230v, and the water pipes will be at local earth potential (ie 0v). This is bad bad stuff mate.

I'm not trying to scare you, but I hope I've managed to explain just why your situation is so dangerous.

PS. BaS & Martin, I know I said I wouldn't post here, but this was too important. Peace.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Welcome back Hibbo.

I welcome any posts that are helpful and non abusive, and not more concerned with throwing unfounded accusations such as:-

Hibbo wrote

"I have spent a lot of time reading through the archives here, and you are having a giraffe when you say that. People, who sound perfectly competent to do simple work in their own homes, are routinely insulted, belittled, patronised and part-peed-to-death for wishing to do said work without handing over hundreds of pounds to their LA, mainly by you".


And then not have the decency to cite any examples of why they hold this view and why they are prepared to slander others with out offering evidence.

The OP has some knowledge of electrics and I hope enough to realise that there is an urgent need for an electrician.

I am pleased you agree that even for; someone with a fairly good DIY knowledge of electrics, it is not "part peeing them to death or "insulting, belittling or patronising them to suggest an electrician is required.


Peace out

Martin[/i]

 

[bongos]

The electrician stated that he put the lighting circuits on the unprotected side to ensure there is always light available in the event of a trip

This is why he should put them on different RCD's. But on your TT installation they must be RCD protected.

that it is down to the electrician's discretion, whether or not this is done. Is this acceptable practice?

It's not down to the electrician discretion. All circuits on a TT system must be protected by an RCD.

Does the electrician have to install earth wires to water and gas pipes as part of fitting the CU unit, as he says this would be a seperate job.

It is not a separate job. It must be checked and upgraded while completing the CU change. You must make sure that the protective earth bonds are in place and adequately sized.

Your electrician seems to have missed alot in this CU change. Did he leave you with a certificate and if so what results did he get when testing your dodgy circuit? Have you received your completion certificate from his scheme provider? You really need to give them a call to highlight his incompetence!

 

[brackers99]

I originally requested an upgrade of the CU due to a now obsolete Chilton ELCB (the one with the yellow TEST bar), which had tripped and was difficult to reset. From what I understand, they were a bad design as if there was a fault between live and a person, they would not trip. With this in mind, I wanted a new up to date CU to protect my house and family. I also noted the earth wire to the rod outside was of very thin gauge and this was replaced and upgraded.

I do have a 17th edition certificate and all the readings prove okay.Also there is a comment that there is no earthing to gas and water and that customer is aware. Was told floor would need to come up, which is tiled. If I insist on this earthing, can it be routed upstairs underneath the floorboards and then back down?
Thanks

 

[nozspark]

It sounds like a bit of a bodgit and scarper enterprise...

They should not have replaced the CU without upgrading the Protective earth bonding to your services... To me these are the second most important cables in your electrical installation, 1st being your main earth cable.

The only wat I'd have them back in my house would be if they were going to rectify the faults that they shouldn't have left you with at their expense.. if not you should really think about making a formal complaint with their resistration body and maybe trading standards.

You can run the earth cable whichever way you want...

for instance you could run it outside, up to and through the loft and then back down... If I remember correctly anything over 33m requires 16mm to get <0.05 ohms) and you might also need or want some mechanical protection for it eg. conduit