Safe to use power tools in garage?

[chivers67]

Really? never seen one without a cover like that.

 

[chivers67]

As a matter of interest, I wonder why you and SFX are suggesting that - just because of the age of the existing residual current device? (although it looks as if they have probably 'paralleled' the three L paths through the device, they needn't have done, but that won't have made any difference to functionality)

Kind Regards, John

Which do you think will trip first? I'd hope either but given that device is probably almost as old as me and probably rarely tested I'd want peace of mind and a local RCD inside the garage.

 

[SUNRAY]

There's nothing wrong with the cut-out in the OPs picture. That's exactly what that style should look like.

I think I agree with you, I expect to see the earth termination.

 

[SFK]

JohnW2,
"I wonder why you and SFK are suggesting [using a RCD] - just because of the age of the existing residual current device?"

I suggested a RCD because at that point only the closeup image of the CU was shown, and I thought that there was no RCD in place. Later images did then show the ELCB prior to the CU.

However, if I was using a metal based/framed table saw in a remote garage, with that old ELCB in place in the house, I think I would still be tempted to get an £9 RCD on the garage socket.

SFK

 

[wundaboy]

Really? never seen one without a cover like that.

That's what a Series 6 cutout looks like, it's predominantly used for TN-S/SNE services.

What concerns me more is that the earth block, i.e. the exposed brass terminal, is unused. If the supplied cable sheath earth is unsuitable/insufficient to provide an earth the DNO shouldn't have used that cutout and/or provided a label stating that the service is suitable for TT, i.e. earth rod and RCD only.

I think the OP should get an electrician in to do an inspection report on the whole installation as there seem to be a number of shortcomings due to age and later bodges. Also, although there are RCDs, it's unclear whether there is any earth connected at all at the moment, so that needs investigating. If the supplied earth terminal on the cutout is of sufficiently low impedance, that should be connected to the installation.

 

[JohnW2]

Which do you think will trip first? I'd hope either but given that device is probably almost as old as me and probably rarely tested I'd want peace of mind and a local RCD inside the garage.

Fair enough - that's the answer to the question I asked - i.e. whether your advice was based just on the age of the RCD.

As a matter of interest. At what age (or after how many years of service) do you feel an RCD should be 'retired'? Most of mine are probably about 20 years old - in my position, would you be worrying?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I suggested a RCD because at that point only the closeup image of the CU was shown, and I thought that there was no RCD in place. Later images did then show the ELCB prior to the CU.

Ah - fair enough.

However, if I was using a metal based/framed table saw in a remote garage, with that old ELCB in place in the house, I think I would still be tempted to get an £9 RCD on the garage socket.

OK - so in answer to my question, you (as well as chivers) were concerned about the age of the RCD. If it were you, would you not just test it, or would the age put you off completely, regardless of test results?

When basing decisions like this on age, it's perhaps worth remembering that it's often true that "they don't make them like wot they used to", and that an 'old' item may actually have much greater reliability and life expectancy than something much more 'modern'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SFK]

JohnW2,
I was not concerned about the 'age' of the RCD causing it to not work.
I am happy with bathtub failure curves.

I was concerned that the system as a whole looks like it works, but needs some TLC as seems to have some not-age-related issues.
So I would be treating that setup warily.

Hence having a plug in RCD directly on the new table saw would make me happier that the saw itself would be safer (eg if I nicked its cable) if other parts of the system were at issue.

But having an RCD on the end of the system does not safeguard anyone from the rest of the system if that first RCD is not working.
So eitherway I would be getting someone in to test this setup.
SFK

 

[John D v2.0]

I can't see anyone has mentioned the tails between the meter and the elcb, are they some kind of braided rubber cable? I'd expect to see insulated and sheathed PVC tails in an up to date installation.

 

[JohnW2]

I can't see anyone has mentioned the tails between the meter and the elcb, are they some kind of braided rubber cable? I'd expect to see insulated and sheathed PVC tails in an up to date installation.

I thought that - but it's a pretty modern meter (I would have guessed {perhaps wrongly!} probably installed in the last decade or so) and I find it hard to believe it would then have been connected to rubber tails.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

JohnW2, I was not concerned about the 'age' of the RCD causing it to not work.
I am happy with bathtub failure curves. I was concerned that the system as a whole looks like it works, but needs some TLC as seems to have some not-age-related issues. So I would be treating that setup warily. .... Hence having a plug in RCD directly on the new table saw would make me happier that the saw itself would be safer (eg if I nicked its cable) if other parts of the system were at issue.

I agree with you about the installation's general need for TLC (and maybe more), but I'm not sure that what you say above is all that logical ...

... the only thing that a plug-in RCD (or RCD socket) for the table saw would protect you against would be failure of the existing RCD to trip when it should because of some issue with the saw. Therefore, if you don't have concerns (based on age or whatever) about the existing RCD, per se, then I'm not quite sure what the additional RCD for just the saw (and maybe other tools or outdoor equipment) would achieve. ... or am I missing something?

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

There's nothing wrong with the cut-out in the OPs picture. That's exactly what that style should look like.

Maybe but if that is the incoming PEN customer earth terminal (or a separate earth conductor), it's a (small) extraneous conductive part and should be bonded(!)
In our TN-S installation the earth is connected to the sheath before the cutout and to an independent block, but ours is a 3 phase so they might do them differently.

 

[chivers67]

Fair enough - that's the answer to the question I asked - i.e. whether your advice was based just on the age of the RCD.
As a matter of interest. At what age (or after how many years of service) do you feel an RCD should be 'retired'? Most of mine are probably about 20 years old - in my position, would you be worrying?
Kind Regards, John

I'd hope you would test them on a Regular basis mechanically and electronically for disconnection times. I've had a number of RCDs fail in my line of work that aren't that old at all but due to what looks like irregular testing have caused them to have poor disconnection times. Also since the OP doesn't sound like getting an electrician to do any remedial work done sometime soon I think having that RCD socket would be safer?

 

[JohnW2]

I'd hope you would test them on a Regular basis mechanically and electronically for disconnection times.

I do (although I'm not sure what you mean by 'test mechanically' - do you mean by pressing the Test button {which activates the mechanism electronically}).

I've had a number of RCDs fail in my line of work that aren't that old at all but due to what looks like irregular testing have caused them to have poor disconnection times.

Indeed. As I said, age is not really a good indicator of anything - modern RCDs can sometimes fail very young, and some old one can go on satisfactorily 'for ever'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Abby6006]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. To summarise:

- My installation is a bit of a poopshow
- I should probably use an RCD if I want to use a table saw
- It's not really possible to tell if the installation is up to the mark to use both a table saw & dust extractor in the garage
- I need to get an electrician out to answer that and most likely do some remedial work

To be honest given your views of what I've shown you (which is the handy work of three different electricians), I'm not sure if I can even trust anyone I call out but I guess I'll have to take that risk if I want to realise my dream of accidentally lopping my tits off with a table saw