Self certification and tester

[delboybully]

I have recently passed my 2392 theory and practical and am in the process of revising to take my 2391

I am going to set myself up as a domestic installer and even have a builder who wants me to do his electrics

What is the best self cert scheme, which ones do you all use and why

Also i need to buy a tester, what are good ones and good places to buy them

Up to now i have been a painter, decorater and general handyman and as such have most tools like SDS drills etc but i do need to buy more specialist electrical tools, like those fancy wire strippers. Any suggestions on tools i will need and some good places to buy these. I dont want to buy cheap rubbish but i am on a budget

Thanks in advance

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am going to set myself up as a domestic installer and even have a builder who wants me to do his electrics

Oh dear.

 

[sparkticus]

You will need test equipment. Either a multifunctional or individual insulation tester, EFLI tester, RCD tester, voltmeter and low ohms resistance meter.
A current clamp and multimeter are also indispensable.

When you say you are going to set yourself up as a domestic installer are you specifically referring to the NICEIC scheme? You will need to be very experienced at inspection & test to be able to complete the assessment.

You have completed C&G 2392 but what experience do you have? If not much then should you not consider working for an electrical company for a year or two before working on your own? The requirements for becoming a qualified supervisor are being increased from next year.

 

[delboybully]

Another useful post from BAS, but then again at least i didnt get abuse!!!!

As for experience, I have done lots of DIY electrics over last 20 years including recently wiring my extension (but not testing it). I have also worked for an electrician recently who explained and helped me with testing so i feel i have enough experience

As for the testers, the course i went on used Install testers, the electrician used Megger. Anyone any thought on these or any others.

As for the self cert schemes, I have heard NICEIC is the biggest but the least helpful. The electrician uses ELECSA, he says they are cheaper than NICEIC, more helpful and has to the inspection of work quicker. Does anyone else have experience of these or any others

 

[flameport]

I have also worked for an electrician recently who explained and helped me with testing so i feel i have enough experience

Some testing scenarios for you - these are basic things and you should know the answers without looking them up in a book or elsewhere. (in some cases you won't find the answers in a book anyway)


1. You have installed a new radial circuit consisting of 3x socket outlets. The end of the cable is inside the consumer unit, but not connected to anything.
What are the tests you would do, in what order, and how are they done?

2. Customer has a lighting circuit with 4x pendant lights, the MCB has tripped and won't reset. How do you locate the fault?

3. Customer's house has a CU with 6 circuits (MCB for each), the main switch is a 30mA RCD. The RCD has tripped. The customer has tried to reset the RCD but it will not. Before using any test equipment or tools, what would be the first thing to do?

4. Before any testing is done on a socket outlet circuit in an occupied house, what is the first thing to do?

5. When measuring Zs for a lighting circuit protected by a 6A type B MCB, the results is 3.0 ohms. Is this acceptable?

6. Ring circuit with 10x socket outlets on it. Sockets 1-9 work correctly. When anything is plugged into the 10th socket, the RCD trips every time. What is the most likely cause of this fault?

7. When measuring Ze for an installation with a TNS supply, the result is 0.7 ohms. Is this acceptable?

8. A lighting circuit has several dimmer switches. How will this affect testing?

9. After using a ladder to install a new circuit and outside floodlight at roof level on a 2 storey house, what test would not be done? Why?

10. Radial circuit for a cooker. Cooker is not connected, it's a new house. When doing an insulation resistance test, the results are LE 200M, NE 200M, LN 0.25M. What is the most likely cause of this apparent fault? (the answer is not cable damage or trapped wires).

As for the testers, the course i went on used Install testers, the electrician used Megger. Anyone any thought on these or any others.

The choices are Megger or Fluke. Which one is personal choice.
There are other manufacturers, don't know of any sensible reasons to use them.

As for the self cert schemes, I have heard NICEIC is the biggest but the least helpful. The electrician uses ELECSA, he says they are cheaper than NICEIC, more helpful and has to the inspection of work quicker. Does anyone else have experience of these or any others

The choices are NICEIC, ELECSA or NAPIT. The costs and requirements are basically the same for each.

 

[delboybully]

I feel perfectly comfortable in doing domestic wiring. On the course i attended they went through all the theory and practicals. The only reason i havent done the 2391 is because the exam isnt until october, C&G dont do them earlier

Interesing questions of which none really poses a problem to solve.

Back to my intital questions

1. What testers do people use and would they recommend them

2. What self cert schemes does anyone belong to and would they recommend them

 

[sparkticus]

I feel perfectly comfortable in doing domestic wiring. On the course i attended they went through all the theory and practicals.

I'm sorry I am going to sound rude but I don't actually mean to be rude. You may feel comfortable in doing domestic electrics but that is completely different to selling your services to clients who expect an experienced expert. I both applaud and support anyone who wants to improve themselves and their career prospects but you are jumping the gun. You do not have enough knowledge and you do not have enough experience. You said yourself that you have not done much testing (or you implied it) You apparently don't even have a tester!! The problem is it is all about the testing and the design. Almost anyone can run cables and ensure connections are secure. What you need to do is go and work for an electrician for at least two years. You have much more to learn (including both practical and theory) than you could possibly imagine. Again I applaud you for taking the courses but I am a little tired of seeing inexperienced people setup an electrical business on a wing and a prayer and even call themselves electricians. It is becoming a joke and it is essentially misrepresentation in my personal opinion.

The only reason i havent done the 2391 is because the exam isnt until october, C&G dont do them earlier

Ok now you are kidding right? You need at least two years test & inspection experience to pass the C&G 2391.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

get either a megger or metrel MFT, easy to use.
I have megger MFT1552, they don't make them any more but you might find one on ebay at reasonable price, nice bit of kit does every test you will need to do domestics and Megger customers service is excellent.

I belong to ELECSA, I thinks it's £440 for your first year, they are really helpful and if you have a problem or query they are very good in speed of reply.

Additional equipment that will be helpful with testing are as follow:
A plug in adaptor for R1+R2 testing at socket outlets, a wander/long lead for R2 readings, cable rods, head lamp, good set of screw drivers.
Spare leads, probes and croc clips and spare batteries and fuse for the meter, just to name a few

 

[delboybully]

Finally a useful post that answers my questions. Thanks very much prenticeboyofderry

I am going to go with elecsa. I spoke to them earlier and they seem very helpful and explained a lot of what is required to register. I dont think it will be a problem

As for the tester i shall look into megger


Sparticus, the reason i dont have a tester is that i have just finished my course. The reason i asked what are good testers is so that i dont make an expensive mistake.

I appreciate your viewpoint but i still feel that i have enough experience to start doing domestic wiring. We did lots of testing on the course including fault finding and the electrician i did some work for helped and taught me a lot.

As for 2 years inspect and test to pass the 2391, thats rubbish. I know 2 people who have done the same course i did and passed (one had to have 2 goes at the practical). It may take some people 2 years to pass the 2391, but some people will pass it quickly by doing a course and lots of homework. I am not saying i shall pass it (time will tell) but saying you need 2 years minimum is false.

I am looking forward to my new career as an domestic installer

 

[sparkticus]

Sparticus, the reason i dont have a tester is that i have just finished my course. The reason i asked what are good testers is so that i dont make an expensive mistake.

I completely understand why you are asking about testers and that is the right thing to do. My point is that you have only just completed your course, you don't yet have a tester. That is clear evidence that you don't have enough test experience. It's not just test experience anyway, with C&G 2392 you will not have enough understanding or experience of electrical science. Again, I applaud you for doing the course but you should not be working on your own for a while.

I appreciate your viewpoint but i still feel that i have enough experience to start doing domestic wiring. We did lots of testing on the course including fault finding and the electrician i did some work for helped and taught me a lot.

Of course you think you have enough experience because you haven't had eneough experience to know how much you do not yet know. That's not your fault but jumping the gun and going self employed as an electrician (which is what clients will think you are) is plain wrong.

As for 2 years inspect and test to pass the 2391, thats rubbish. I know 2 people who have done the same course i did and passed (one had to have 2 goes at the practical). It may take some people 2 years to pass the 2391, but some people will pass it quickly by doing a course and lots of homework. I am not saying i shall pass it (time will tell) but saying you need 2 years minimum is false.

That is not my point and there is no rubbish in anything I have written. Some people pass the C&G 2391 with little experience and you may too. The training companies do not vet people correctly because they don't want to turn down the revenue. C&G2391 is meant to be taken by very experienced electricians. Having it does not make you an electrician. Having the right experience to take it might.

You seem intent anyway no matter how much you don't know so it makes little difference. What you don't know is that you are not ready but you will find that out in the first few months. You will also then acknowledge that you should have taken time to do things properly and work with good experienced electricians who know their stuff and pass on good habits.

 

[RF Lighting]

If you're ready and competent like you think you are, why don't you answer flameport's questions?

I assure you they are not trick questions, and they are simple to answer off the top of your head. You will be faced with much much more difficult questions / scenarios when you get out in the real world.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

delboybully,
May I offer you some words of wisdom?
I agree with a lot of what sparkticus is trying to but across to you regarding getting out there and getting some experience, the more work you do the more testing you will do, the better you will get, the more you will learn, not just how to test, what to expect as your test results, what they mean, resolving problems, fault finding.
You will come across a whole host of things, that will have you scratching your head.
I admire you for what you are doing, I did very much the same thing and still learning now. So I want knock you, sure it's passable with limited experience.
But
If you intention is to go self employed in the domestic market, 2391 is not really needed. Don't get me wrong it's a great qualification to have under your belt and it's not a give me either.
You sound full of confidence and you have been successful at the 2392, which I congratulate for achieving.

2391 different beast altogether:
The written exam is a two and half hour exam, no books allowed, only standard non scientific calculators allowed too.
You will get 20 short questions, this could be in three parts a,b,c.
The mark per question is 3 marks.
Then you get 6 longer questions carrying 15 marks each, these are a little more detailed and will be structured around around a scenario given on the test paper.
You may also be required to draw diagrams, ie a TNS earth fault loop path.
The four practical exams are normally all sat on the same day, not the same day as the written exam!
They will consist of a
1) rig that you will need to do a visual inspection on, you will be looking for 12 non-compliances, ie incorrect fuse rating for cable sizes, non sleeved switch wires, insulation showing on live conductors, cables not clipped flat, twisted cables etc....
This a 30 minute test.

2) Zs compliance test, you will do two different Zs tests on an assumed circuit which are protected by two different rated/type of device.
You will take a reading, then using the tables 41.2, 41.3 and 41.4 in BS7671 can be found on pages 48/49.
Using the rule of thumb method Appendix 14, multiplying the table value by 0.8. You need to confirm if the circuit would comply or not.
They want to see all working outs.
10 min test

3) Insulation resistance, you will need to IR test an DB/CU for two IR faults, this could be a low reading or a short, they could be between L-E, L-N or E-N. you will need to document what the faults is ie low reading and the conductors that the fault is between, this should be a single phase board.
20 min test

4) This a PIR on a rig doing schedules of inspection and test.
I had two schedules test to do on my exam, it was a three phase board that had a sub main to a single phase CU.
On the rig were the following circuits on the three phase DB
RFC
Radial with FCU
DOL with Motor
Then the feed between three phase DB to single phase CU with RCD protection
Then on the Single phase CU were these circuits.
Socket Radial
Two lighting circuit with dimmer
One way lighting circuit
2 hour test.
This included filling in PIR and schedules.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1. Connect it and run round with a socket tester.

2. Tell him he needs a new CU and a rewire.

3. Ask him to go next door and have the neighbour make a cup of tea.

4. Rifle through the wife's underwear drawer.

5. The lights work, don't they?

6. Too many sockets. Disconnect #10 and tape up the ends of the cable.

7. Probly.

8. You need to turn them up full or you won't be able to read the meter.

9. You wouldn't check that it worked cos if it didn't you'd have to get up the ladder again.

10. The kitchen fitters done it. Need a new CU and a rewire.

 

[RF Lighting]

DOL with Motor

What is it with college exams and DOLs?

I think every mock up rig I've had to install or work on has included one

 

[delboybully]

Prenticeboyofderry, I am fully aware of what is involved in the 2391 theory and practical exams. This is what we have been studying for. It is certaintly a tough exam. As you say i dont need it to be a domestic installer but i want to get it anyway.

I have 2 electricians who will give me advice if i need it and the training college say as a ex student i can phone them up for advice too. I feel i am ready for this and am going to do it.

Yet another useful post from BAS