Should I pay final invoice only when Fensa cert received?

[r_c]

We have had a few problems with our window installer, to say the least. He now has one more door to do. We have said that final payment will be made once the Fensa certificates have been received. He says that guarantees and Fensa certificates are only issued once full payment received.

Am I being unreasonable? Is it the norm for the client to only receive Fensa certificates after payment has been made in full?

 

[crank39]

Be very vary, could be nothing or there could be some underlying reasons why you've had issues with the company, they could for instance be on the verge of shutting down and trying to scrape in as much money as they can before they go pop, they may not even register the job with Fensa nor the insurer, this used to be my line of work, I've seen this a hundred times

 

[chappers]

This could just come down to a battle of wills, though I suspect if it was tested in court, the outcome would favour the fitter as he has actually carried out the work and supplied the windows.
Why not suggest you meet half way and retain say 10% to be paid on receipt of the cert.

 

[^woody^]

The issuing of a certificate is an implied part of the contract, so the contract is not complete until the certificate is handed over - hence full payment is not required.

I would presume that they would enclose the certificate with their final invoice in any case.

 

[crank39]

The issuing of a certificate is an implied part of the contract, so the contract is not complete until the certificate is handed over - hence full payment is not required.

I would presume that they would enclose the certificate with their final invoice in any case.

The installer doesn't issue the certificate though, when the install is complete and when he can be bothered or has some down time to catch up on paperwork that's when he registers each job with fensa and the insurer who then send the cert and insurance policy, until he does neither of those two know about the installation and no paperwork will be forthcoming, it's a case of putting your trust in each other in the hope he sees it through

 

[DHFrames]

We only issue certs on cleared funds.
Cashflow killer, suppliers wouldn't be paid, wages would be late etc
Fensa and insurance certs can also take up to 12 weeks!
How's about holding back £200, if the certs don't show, you can then go down the LABC route.

 

[^woody^]

We write a condition into contracts which require documentation at the end - H&S manual, certification and commissioning certificates etc, that money will be withheld until paperwork received.

It must be an accurate and reasonable amount relative to the costs involved though, not some random figure.

And yes, bear in mind the contractor's position and cash flow.

 

[r_c]

Thank you all.

@DHFrames I have sympathy with cashflow needs of a small business. And what a pain to have to wait for 12 weeks. You suggest holding back £200. Would you do that?

I read the contract and found these two item:

• Payment of the full balance due, less deposit, must be made upon completion of the installation or delivery of the Contract to the Company Manager. Interest will be charged at the rate of one per cent per month or part thereof on any sum outstanding for more than fourteen days following completion of the installation or delivery of the Contract.
• All products remain the property of the Company until such time as the balance has been paid in full.

Would FENSA certificates be considered part of 'the contract'? I cannot find the words Fensa or certificate on the contract. (It's plastered all over his website though.) I have the feeling I will have to pay up, and just wait and hope. Unfortunately the relationship has broken down and neither of us has much trust in the other.

 

[r_c]

The issuing of a certificate is an implied part of the contract

I'd love to read more about this. Can you suggest a term to google or a website that backs up why you think is implied?

 

[DHFrames]

Regardless if it's a small or multi million pound national company, having to wait 2 months after each job for payment is never going to work
If there are remaining snags left on the job then hold money, if it's complete then you need pay.
We've gone to the customers house before to certify in front of them, they then know it's been done.

 

[motorbiking]

You won't find anything specific on the implied term.. What you have is a product sold by description and consumer rights legislation that it meets the description and quality etc.. "here is a window with properties x and warranty y backed up by z". The contract will state obligations on the client and the installer including payment terms etc (as above). If the installer has breached these terms then the customer may have some reason to withold payment. A breakdown of trust between the parties is a reason to take additional steps to protect yourself .e.g. commitments made and broken. If the customer has good grounds to believe the installer intends to breach the contract, then he also has recourse.

Your argument is that the installation is not complete until the certificates are confirmed. As the installation doesn't meet the description and terms of the contract without them. If he starts arguing that the certificates don't form part of the contract then basically you've got him.

 

[r_c]

We've gone to the customers house before to certify in front of them, they then know it's been done.

I like the sound of this. How in practise is this done? Is it as simple as filling in a form Fensa's website?

 

[DHFrames]

The company/installer logs onto the Fensa site, inserts all the required date.... done!!
Fensa HQ then issue cert, depending on their work load usually lands in 4-6weeks

Depending on which insurance company they use for IBGs, this may automatically be issued, if not they will have to do the same procedure on the insurance companies site

 

[Gazman16]

We only issue certs on cleared funds.
Cashflow killer, suppliers wouldn't be paid, wages would be late etc
Fensa and insurance certs can also take up to 12 weeks!
How's about holding back £200, if the certs don't show, you can then go down the LABC route.

This is what I do too but I'm pretty sure we are not supposed too. I'm sure I read somewhere in the FENSA guidelines that the job is meant to be registered within 2 weeks of completion and cant be held back until paid.

Holding back money can get into legal difficulty's but I'm pretty sure the law allows a reasonable amount to be held back until snagging etc is complete. 5% I believe.

Although the FENSA certificate can take upto 12 weeks (more in some cases!) I think you can check on the FENSA website a day or 2 after it was registered to see your address is going through. I have done this and screen shot'd it a few times when people were trying to sell a house but the certificate hadn't yet come.

 

[DHFrames]

I do all our certs generally every 4-6 weeks.
Fensa say 2 weeks which is doable on some jobs, Certass allow a month I think
Some jobs are done in stages and some are new build etc so are never done in one hit.
All ours are certified on completion (completion meaning the customer is fully satisfied) and on full payment.
That's our terms, nothing's asked for up front. Personally I think it's a fair process which works well for both parties.
If a customer is moving house then Fensa will issue a cover letter for the solicitor until the certs arrive.