Shower issues

[JohnW2]

I have had one light switch fail here in a slightly longer period and I agree, they rarely do fail, but they are wall switches. Ceiling light switches fail rather more often, they are maybe more complex/ more delicate and abused more - yanked by the strength of an arm, rather than a finger tip. An additional problem is the current the have to carry, even if they don't switch it - up to 45amp, in what is a fairly compact space. They also use a similar mechanism to many ballpoint pens, to convert a pull into on on/off. The mechanism of lots of these pens fail.

Yes, I completely agree with all that and, having seen 'how they work' (as you describe), I'm pretty surprised that they last as well as they do!

I have a few (light/fan) pull switches here and I can't recall one failing the the 30+ years. In particular, we have one in our downstairs loo which is still going strong after all those years. It has no windows (so light is essential for every use) and it is more-or-less the only loo which is used 'during waking hours' by all of the occupants and any visitors - so goodness knows how many operations it has experienced in all these years.

There are also lots of complaints of shower pull switches failing in this forum.

I have to say that I don't recall many complaints of them failing 'mechanically' - the issue usually seems to be overheating of terminals/connections (usually the neutral conductor!), but maybe my memory is failing me.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Yes, I completely agree with all that and, having seen 'how they work' (as you describe), I'm pretty surprised that they last as well as they do!

I have a few (light/fan) pull switches here and I can't recall one failing the the 30+ years. In particular, we have one in our downstairs loo which is still going strong after all those years. It has no windows (so light is essential for every use) and it is more-or-less the only loo which is used 'during waking hours' by all of the occupants and any visitors - so goodness knows how many operations it has experienced in all these years.

There are several such switch issues below in 'related threads'. I don't have a single pull switch in the house - I simply do not like them, though I do have one in my caravan's bathroom, which was broken by my partner pulling it too hard a couple of weeks ago.

 

[delmel]

Just because the regs say you don't have to have an isolator doesn't mean you can't fit one.

The regs are a minimum and can be exceeded.

Let me tell you a little story. I hope you are sitting comfortably.

When the 14th Edition was introduced in 1966, they went into great detail and there was much criticism because it wasn't so much a book of regulations but an instruction manual, allowing anybody to have a go at wiring.

Nowadays, the regs are less of an instruction manual and the users have to apply their grey matter more.

Edited for clarity.

The regulations have to change as they need to justify the existance, otherwise what would they do

 

[LearningSpark]

Thanks all, no the shower switch was new when the shower was put in a few months ago. (There's another post on here somewhere where I had to lift the floor above to add a noggin to get something solid to screw into.) Anyway, we tend to leave it on.

I don't think the cabling was was loose, but it is a tight spot, so maybe something came loose when pushing the switch up to meet the box. Either that or a dodgy switch possibly.

Anyhoo.. Have cut back the cables to where they look healthy and re-run 10mm from a heavy duty junction box to a new 50A switch (MK, not Crabtree, due to reusing the old square backbox). Everything back together and working (10 min test) but I've left the floorboard up in the spare room above to keep an eye on things.

Still on a 32A MCB, but I picked up a 50A while out today. A job for another day perhaps.

UPDATE:
32A MCB tripped after 10mins use today, so I've swapped it out for the 50A and re-inspected the cabling running to, and within the switch for any excess heat. Fingers crossed it's OK now....

The 50A MCB you have just fitted is too large for the 6mm² cable you have feeding your shower.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It doesn't matter if the shower is less than 47A. The shower cannot cause an overload.

 

[winston1]

And a 3rd manufacturers instruction manual:
View attachment 202912

Manufacturers instructions are guidance only and don't have to be followed, especially when they are wrong.

e.g. of wrong MI:

 

[winston1]

There is no requirement to have an isolating valve in the house and therefore winston will not have one of them so Winston won't be able to turn the wter off.
All they had to do was pull that not required [in Winstons words] switch and the shower couldn't have turned itself on and they wouldn't have a £2K leccy bill and the insurance wouldn't have a stupidly big claim and the couple wouldn't have lost all of the irreplaceable memories and they wouldn't have been stuffed into a little flat for 6 months and... and...

I don't know about water regs but every house I have been in has 2 isolators, one outside in the road, property of the water company and another either in the front garden or in the house.

All they had to do was turn off one of them to avoid this calamity. Leaving water on in an empty house in winter is very foolish. As an additional precaution they could have turned the breaker off for the shower at the CU.

 

[JohnW2]

Sigh.

 

[winston1]

Rubbish. It is a switch.


Local isolation is not a requirement of the Wiring Regulations -

so how can you say what purpose the person had in mind when it was fitted?

Sigh.

Why?

 

[SUNRAY]

Quite so. If, as some do, they have the switch fitted so that they can (for whatever perceived reason) operate it before/after every shower, then it is clearly nonsense to say that, in their case, "The switch is only their for isolation".

As for "... a great deal of wear and tear on the switch", I would imagine that most light switches are operated at least as frequently as would a shower switch used before and after every shower, and that many are operated far more frequently that that. My ageing memory may be a litle dusty but I cannot recall any occasion in the 30+ years I've been in my present house when I had to replace a light switch because it had failed due to 'wear and tear' - and that despite the fact that, unlike shower switches, light switches are invariably operated 'on load'.

Kind Regards, John

I think I recall only 4 failed switches in total in all the houses I've lived in, 2 of those were found immediately on taking possession and were ancient, others in the house were equally ancient and seemed servicable, an MK 3G which failed within days - I don't count those 3 as failing in my service. the other was a few years old.
There have been a few others that have failed for a reason such as physical damage, cracked due to twisting on an uneven wall, electrical overload etc, all of which don't count either.

Now my rental properties are a different kettle of fish, I think I probably average one or two wall switches and a pull switch a year over 4 properties , it all depends on the tenants. I've got into the habit of replacing accessories at change of tenant if they've been there for several years which reduces the call outs.

 

[SUNRAY]

Manufacturers instructions are guidance only and don't have to be followed, especially when they are wrong.

e.g. of wrong MI:

I haven't opened the thumbnail but I wondered when that old chestnut would be introduced.

 

[SUNRAY]

I don't know about water regs but every house I have been in has 2 isolators, one outside in the road, property of the water company and another either in the front garden or in the house.

All they had to do was turn off one of them to avoid this calamity. Leaving water on in an empty house in winter is very foolish. As an additional precaution they could have turned the breaker off for the shower at the CU.

And how do you expect the average combi boiler to work in frost protection mode with the water turned off?????

It doesn't change the fact that the failure that caused the almost total rebuild of the house was ELECTRICAL and pulling that little bit of string in the bathroom which is so easy, just as easy as turning off the light on the adjacent pull switch, would have saved their house. That is not the only shower failure I have personally been aquainted with.

Why are you so scared of pulling a bit of string, I really must try to find out the name of the phobia that you suffer from.

 

[JohnW2]

I think I recall only 4 failed switches in total in all the houses I've lived in, 2 of those were found immediately on taking possession and were ancient, others in the house were equally ancient and seemed servicable, an MK 3G which failed within days - I don't count those 3 as failing in my service. the other was a few years old.

My all-time experience is very similar.

There have been a few others that have failed for a reason such as physical damage, cracked due to twisting on an uneven wall, electrical overload etc, all of which don't count either.

Sure, I've also replaced a few that were physically damaged (but most of those 'still working fine') - but, like you, am not counting them.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I have had one light switch fail here in a slightly longer period and I agree, they rarely do fail, but they are wall switches. Ceiling light switches fail rather more often, they are maybe more complex/ more delicate and abused more - yanked by the strength of an arm, rather than a finger tip. An additional problem is the current the have to carry, even if they don't switch it - up to 45amp, in what is a fairly compact space. They also use a similar mechanism to many ballpoint pens, to convert a pull into on on/off. The mechanism of lots of these pens fail. There are also lots of complaints of shower pull switches failing in this forum.

I have also never heard of a wall mounted shower isolator switch failing.

I find domestic switches are reliable devices and by far the most frequent failure is shower pull switches overheating. My theory on this [and again I stress it is only my theory without any great deal if investigative proof] is the thick wires are forced into a very limited space after tightening and the good termination becomes disturbed/damaged at the time of installation after that it's only a question of time. Most other switches don't suffer with the same cramped conditions.

 

[JohnW2]

I find domestic switches are reliable devices and by far the most frequent failure is shower pull switches overheating. My theory on this [and again I stress it is only my theory without any great deal if investigative proof] is the thick wires are forced into a very limited space after tightening and the good termination becomes disturbed/damaged at the time of installation after that it's only a question of time. Most other switches don't suffer with the same cramped conditions.

Yes, that could well be the reason. As I said, we seem to hear far more about shower pull switches overheating due to termination problems (quite possibly for the reason you suggest) rather than 'failing due to wear and tear'.

Kind Regards, John