Smart charging alternators.

You do not seem to be answering my questions. It's fair enough if you don't know; no one else seems to either.

My link is the best I have.

To replenish 600 Amp-seconds will take 600 Amp-seconds so if the alternator is only at 3A then it will be 200 seconds - not 13 miles (originally stated) nor 15 minutes.

That is because I am failing to understand the actual question.

'Not sure I understand that.
So, it doesn't take 15 minutes to replenish the battery.'

There just are far too many variables - cranking time and current depend upon temperature, plus the condition of the engine. Recharge time depends upon age and condition of the battery, plus the charging system. 15/20 minutes is usually accepted as an average time to replace the charge after an engine start on a conventional car.
 
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I work back of house in a large retailer where I receive and unload lorries.

The batteries may be huge, or there maybe a bank of batteries, but a lorry could start and stop as much as 5 or 6 times in the space of five minutes and only travel as far as 100 meters (from the back gate to the loading bay, then stopping to open the trailer doors) which is then repeated about an hour or two later. And yet none has ever failed to start.

Obviously the journey from store to depot would recharge the battery (batteries?) but I envision that a similar process takes place at the depot.

No flat batteries and probably recharged quicker than 15 minutes. :?:
 
If you charge either fixed voltage or fixed amperage into a lead acid battery which has just been discharged then within a very short time it is back to fully charged, however leave some time between the discharging and recharging and there is a completely different story.

So typical narrow boat, 4 x 180 Ah batteries, 1 for engine start and 3 for domestic power, at around 6 pm the engine is stopped, and it is not started until 10 am next morning, and even with stage charging by 6 pm next day the 3 domestic batteries have not recovered fully, maybe 90% or more, but not full, so what happens is each day the domestic battery gets lower and lower, so the owner looks for a place where he can get shore power, even once a fortnight is enough, the extra 16 hours charge is enough to recharge the domestic batteries.

If you monitor the power in and out of a battery you can calculate how much charge it needs to replenish the battery, this is what the engine management does, but if you only measure the power put into the battery then you have no way of knowing the state of charge, all you can measure is amps and volts, there is no hydrometer connected to the charger.

So typical smart charger, in my case Lidi, it has 5 levels of charge, 3.8A, 3A, 0.8A 0.1A and zero, and it selects the current depending on the battery voltage, so it starts off at 3.8A, at 12.8 volt it drops to next stage, so now 3A charge, at 14.1 volts it then goes to next stage so now 0.8A, this continues until it hits 14.4 volt, at which point it drops to 0.1A charge rate, with the larger batteries this is often not enough to maintain the voltage, so the volts will drop until it hits 12.8 volt at which point it will return to 0.8A charge rate.

The main point of charger is connect and forget, it is not designed for a fast charge, however in the last stage the mark/space ratio changes over time, so to start with around 1.5 hours at 0.1A and then 1.5 hours at 0.8A, and as the sulphur turns slowly back into acid the time changes so day latter you have 2 minutes at 0.8A and 8 minutes at 0.1A and slowly the pulses get shorter and shorter, and watching the volt meter most of the time it shows 12.8 volt, as it goes to 0.8A it quickly raises to 14.4 then drops again, after a few days it will start to rise above the 12.8 volt, and the 90 Ah AGM battery I have sits at 13.8 volt at 0.1A. The smaller batteries for example the 12 Ah in the jump start box AGM will hit 14.4 volt at 0.1A and start cycling on/off, again sitting most of the time at 12.8 volt.

But to fully charge we are looking at a week, the battery simply can't absorb the charge any faster, it is not the size of the charger that limits to charge rate but the ability of the battery to accept the charge. I had a battery off a chair lift sit for a week taking no charge, then like flicking a switch, it took charge and fully recharged the battery. Before being able to monitor the charger and record the charge rate on my PC, I had no idea of this time taken by the battery being so long. So at moment my Kia Sorento battery is taking 6 pulses per hour of less than 2 minutes each.

So even with the battery to battery charger made by Sterling or Ring, they both make them, or the alternators to battery charger which pulse charges the battery using the voltage decay time to work out charge level, a battery which has been used for 8 hours still takes 10 hours to recharge, often longer, the fork lifts would gas the battery to try and get the recharge time down to below 8 hours.

Now the push bike battery (Ni-Mh) is very different, that will assist me for a 80 mile bike ride of likely with me being not that fit of 5 to 6 hours riding, but can recharge in 2 hours. If I have a bigger charger it could be less, but lead acid batteries take time to charge.
 
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So how many of us with engines having stop/start and smart charging electricals are required to reset and/or register a battery change in the Body/Battery Management System ? Adds quite a chunk to the battery cost if one does not have the OBD device capable of carrying out the required changes.

I bet more than a few just change the battery and to hell with it ! No mention in the Honda handbook etc about reset or registration of battery.
Halfords, EFB (Extended Flooded Battery) 75A/H 700 CCA 5yr guarantee. £121.09, or £146.00 fitted (£25 for battery reset / reg') inc VAT.

Cox Parts Exact model as fitted to car Varta 70A/H 620 CCA Honda backed 3yr guarantee - £87.88 inc VAT. free mainland delivery.
No mention of reset etc... At least not on battery selection page - Maybe later at the till !!

As has been said the web is riven with either dated vehicle battery changes or on later vehicles by eyeballing the terminals displayed ie. can see the smart negative post connector - incomplete battery change in almost every case. Rough one handed video, the person repeats his/her crap over and over - obviously just trying to squeeze a buck without forethought.

One could imagine a reset method built in FFS cost,cost and more cost. All for half of fk'all saved and in my case 82.65 CC diesel burnt per mile DPF'd and everything else far less than for example our Virgin bosses jets burning tonnes of fuel over us all !!!
Anyway I'll put my Necker back in !
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In this video (posted in another thread) - from 1:30.

The engine is running for just under 90 seconds.

Is it the case that the battery has not been replenished in that time - even though the voltage has increased, although it will revert to its original 12.6V?
 
Battery charging isn't linear. When the battery is mostly discharged you can shove a lot of electrons into it, when it's almost full you can't shove then in as fast. If you try then you overheat and damage the battery.

So if you use 800mAh of power starting your car and do a short trip you might only be able to push 400mAh back into the battery if it's nearly full. But if you have half discharged the battery then the same trip may be able to push the full 800mAh back in, or even more.

Batteries are complex. Even before you get to smart charging methods.
 
Battery charging isn't linear. When the battery is mostly discharged you can shove a lot of electrons into it, when it's almost full you can't shove then in as fast. If you try then you overheat and damage the battery.
Ok.

So if you use 800mAh of power starting your car and do a short trip you might only be able to push 400mAh back into the battery if it's nearly full. But if you have half discharged the battery then the same trip may be able to push the full 800mAh back in, or even more.
Not sure why you have used such tiny amounts - but if you used that 800mAh in three seconds, then the shortest trip is going to be longer than that. The question is how many times longer does it have to be?

The quoted 15 minutes is 300 times 3 seconds.
Is that how long it takes or could it be less, say just 30 times longer; 90 seconds?
 
So how many of us with engines having stop/start and smart charging electricals are required to reset and/or register a battery change in the Body/Battery Management System ? Adds quite a chunk to the battery cost if one does not have the OBD device capable of carrying out the required changes.

I bet more than a few just change the battery and to hell with it ! No mention in the Honda handbook etc about reset or registration of battery.
Halfords, EFB (Extended Flooded Battery) 75A/H 700 CCA 5yr guarantee. £121.09, or £146.00 fitted (£25 for battery reset / reg') inc VAT.

Cox Parts Exact model as fitted to car Varta 70A/H 620 CCA Honda backed 3yr guarantee - £87.88 inc VAT. free mainland delivery.
No mention of reset etc... At least not on battery selection page - Maybe later at the till !!

As has been said the web is riven with either dated vehicle battery changes or on later vehicles by eyeballing the terminals displayed ie. can see the smart negative post connector - incomplete battery change in almost every case. Rough one handed video, the person repeats his/her crap over and over - obviously just trying to squeeze a buck without forethought.

One could imagine a reset method built in FFS cost,cost and more cost. All for half of fk'all saved and in my case 82.65 CC diesel burnt per mile DPF'd and everything else far less than for example our Virgin bosses jets burning tonnes of fuel over us all !!!
Anyway I'll put my Necker back in !
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I reset ours using FORScan on the Kuga, but it can also be done with a series of button presses in the cabin (hazard switch etc), the Battery Light will flash 3 times if successful.
 
I reset ours using FORScan on the Kuga, but it can also be done with a series of button presses in the cabin (hazard switch etc), the Battery Light will flash 3 times if successful.

Wish I could find such for Honda -

Yesterday plugged in Volltmeter, 12.1V - switched to ignition 11.9V - Car started good (missed the volt drop !) after few seconds on tickover, 14.38 volts, (no loads applied) very quickly dropped to 12.2V. No warning of idle stop (start / stop) being unavailable, turned it off as usual.
Switched different loads on singularly, even climate control did not affect Volts. Dipped headlights on, alone, instant 14.38V .
Drove 15.2 miles non stop - Volts remained 14.38V whole time - I wonder what the amps were ? I use clamps on my DVM so cannot monitor.
Twas raining on return so couldn't get under bonnet to check amps at battery leads, Volts remained 14.38 until switch off.
Burnt off surface charge, dipped heads until Volts stabilised 12.1V.
No load 12.3 V.
This is about where the C-tek mxs 7.0 charger gets, when reporting fully charged - I guess it means a diminished battery state ie it's fully charged the remaining chargeable battery.

I have found an interesting thread among the big sound wallahs bypassing the ELD (Electonic Load Detection) to enable 14.4V from alternator all time.

'keep_hope_alive' a very readable Electronic Engineer started this - albeit different Honda model
https://www.hondaaccordforum.com/fo...a-electrical-load-detection-eld-bypass-32726/

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Volts are not that much different with non smart chargers, took Kia Sorento off charge yesterday, and drove around 30 miles, this morning went to put back on charge mainly out of interest to see if the battery will ever stop cycling between the 0.8A and 0.1A charge rates on the smart charger, but on connection the volt meter on the smart charger showed 12.5 volt, this is when the battery has been on charge since Saturday and only came off charge yesterday so must be as near as it can be fully charged, and with smart alternators the battery is kept at 80% charged.
 
In this video (posted in another thread) - from 1:30.

The engine is running for just under 90 seconds.

Is it the case that the battery has not been replenished in that time - even though the voltage has increased, although it will revert to its original 12.6V?

I didn't bother watching the video, but..

No the battery will not be replenished in 90 seconds, no where near. An off charge battery EMF can vary tremendously, depending on how soon after being on charge it is measured and how much load is applied to it. It can take as long as 24 hours for an off charge battery's voltage to settle back to its actual voltage.

Whilst on charge, there is no way to determine the state of charge at all. As a battery charges, either on a voltage limited charger, or via the vehicles alternator - the charge current delivered will very quickly decline due the the back EMF of the battery - the battery voltage will quickly rise to match that of the charger, resisting that charge current. Which is why it takes so long to replace the cranking current. A near flat battery might possibly need as long as 10 to 16 hours engine running, to bring a battery back up to full charge. Which is why you often see a suggestion to leave a flat battery on a charger for a full 24 hours.

My little used car has an 80amp/ hour battery fitted and a lot of electronics - so around one per month I put it on a charger which works in a similar fashion to a CTEK. The charger is rated at 3.75amps. If I miss my monthly charge and it hasn't had a good long run out, it can take as long as 48 hours to fully recharge the battery.

The only way to reduce recharge times and push more charge amps into a battery, is to increase the charge voltage. My home designed and built emergency charger, will deliver 25v at up to 60amps in pulses. A battery, unable to crank an engine, on that for a couple of minutes, will allow a car to be started - but the battery has to be disconnected from the car when on charge, or it risks damaging the electronics. I built it some 35 years ago, before cars had electronics.

I have never come across Ericmark's fixed current method being used to recharge a lead acid battery. Fixed maximum voltage, often combined with a current limiting (to protect the charger) is the usual method. Fixed current is used for charging other battery chemistries, combined with voltage limiting.
 
I use one of these at work, and bought one for home as well.

You can tell a lot about the state and health of a battery watching it charge with the ammeter.

Had plenty on for a full day.
 

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2016 9G Honda SR idtec
Ok, so I pulled the two pin plug at the battery negative terminal smart sensor ... Charge volts now 14.4 V.
One warning at the i-multi-information display - effectively 'Auto Idle Stop System' has problem and is not available to use - this can be turned off by cycling the i-m-i display, there remains a little symbol among the the other lights dotted all over the dash - job done.
Car starts drives fine, no discernible problems - yet.
No problems with tickover when switching on headlights. At battery negative earth cable, clamp meter = 0.1A - engine running, so alternator has increased amps to compensate for headlight current draw ??
Now will the battery remain charged when I am controlling when it charges not some algorithm.

Here is the smart sensor :-

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Edit : Honda UK MD was - a chartered Accountant !! That answers a few questions.

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