Split 6mm cable for ovens

[ban-all-sheds]

One does not dumb down the regulations to match the dumbed down abilities of people who are too dumb to be doing electrical installation work.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Strictly speaking it is downstream overload protection - not omission.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And that was not a suggestion that the OP is too dumb, but note I did say

Yes, ... as long as the smaller cables are OK for fault and overload protection given the circuit protective device, or the designer is happy that omitting overload protection where the size reduces is OK.

Somebody who isn't too dumb must do the design - nothing else is acceptable.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Strictly speaking it is downstream overload protection - not omission.

In this case, yes, as there will be a 13A fuse in something.

 

[JohnW2]

Strictly speaking it is downstream overload protection - not omission.

Yes, that's strictly true - but the effect is the same as if one were omitting overload protection because the nature of the load was such that 'overload was unlikely' (provided that fault protection was satisfactory). One could actually 'bring the two concepts together' by saying that the presence of a downstream OPD (adequate for the cable), rather than the nature of the load, made 'overload unlikely'.

In fact, as we've discussed before, it can be argued that an oven is 'unlikley to create' an overload, so that overload protection could theoretically be omitted (i.e. direct wire the oven without an intervening 13A fuse - albeit the MIs call for one!), provided fault protection was OK.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Strictly speaking it is downstream overload protection - not omission.

Yes, that's strictly true - but the effect is the same as if one were omitting overload protection because the nature of the load was such that 'overload was unlikely' (provided that fault protection was satisfactory). One could actually 'bring the two concepts together' by saying that the presence of a downstream OPD (adequate for the cable), rather than the nature of the load, made 'overload unlikely'.

Yes, that's strictly true - but the overload protection is there so it would be difficult to argue that it had been omitted.

In fact, as we've discussed before, it can be argued that an oven is 'unlikley to create' an overload, so that overload protection could theoretically be omitted (i.e. direct wire the oven without an intervening 13A fuse -

That is definitely true.

albeit the MIs call for one!), provided fault protection was OK.

The MIs will call for 13A protection to 'cover' the flex and themselves.


I'm still puzzled if these ovens came with a flex but no plug.

 

[JohnW2]

One could actually 'bring the two concepts together' by saying that the presence of a downstream OPD (adequate for the cable), rather than the nature of the load, made 'overload unlikely'.

Yes, that's strictly true - but the overload protection is there so it would be difficult to argue that it had been omitted.

Well, what one could say/argue is that upstream overload protection had been omitted. As you will understand, I was merely illustrating that the two concepts were essentially the same.

In fact, as we've discussed before, it can be argued that an oven is 'unlikley to create' an overload, so that overload protection could theoretically be omitted (i.e. direct wire the oven without an intervening 13A fuse -

That is definitely true.

As you know, I agree with you - but, as we know, there are those who are less convinced!

The MIs will call for 13A protection to 'cover' the flex and themselves. I'm still puzzled if these ovens came with a flex but no plug.

Yes, that does seem a little odd. In fact, I thought it was not allowed to sell things with a lead but no plug in the UK?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I CBA to look - does that regulation apply to non-portable appliances?

 

[JohnW2]

I CBA to look - does that regulation apply to non-portable appliances?

I don't know - hence the question mark at the end of what I wrote.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Aragorn84]

The electric hob i removed from my kitchen had a flex fitted with bare ends and a big sticker on the back saying "Do not remove the cable".

The gas hob that replaced it also had a flex attached with bare ends.

So i can only imagine fixed equipment are exempt?

 

[JohnW2]

I CBA to look - does that regulation apply to non-portable appliances?

As far as I can make out, although the Plugs and Sockets etc (Safety) 1994 Regulations are a bit confusing, they do not appear to explicitly distinguish between 'portable' and 'no-portable' (or 'fixed') appliances (do not seem to use those words). However, a combination of this, this and this appears to indicate that any appliance "designed to be" connected to a BS1363 socket must be supplied with a fitted plug. However, what that "designed to be" actually means would seem to be open to some debate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The electric hob i removed from my kitchen had a flex fitted with bare ends and a big sticker on the back saying "Do not remove the cable".

If you've only just remove it, how do you know that it didn't originally come with a fitted plug?

The gas hob that replaced it also had a flex attached with bare ends. ... So i can only imagine fixed equipment are exempt?

Fair enough. That would make some sense but, as I've just written, the regulations seem a bit vague about this. It all seems to depend on whether or not the appliance was "designed to be used with a BS1363 socket" - that again makes sense, except that "designed to be used with a BS1363 socket" is a bit vague.

Kind Regard, John

 

[Aragorn84]

If you've only just remove it, how do you know that it didn't originally come with a fitted plug?

Because its rated to 7kw

As your other post suggests though, the regulation seems to only apply to things that are designed to be plugged in. The old hob clearly wasnt, the new one i guess could have been though, as its just a low current ignition system.

Isnt there a regulation that high power fixed appliances (>2kw) shouldnt be plugged in anyway?

 

[JohnW2]

If you've only just remove it, how do you know that it didn't originally come with a fitted plug?

Because its rated to 7kw

Oh, I see! In that case it is a bit of a red herring in terms of this discussion, since the regulations (about fitted plugs) obviously only relate (and say that they only relate) to appliances that draw no more than 13A. ( 11(b) of those regs says "is designed to operate at a maximum rated input of not more than 13 ampere")

As your other post suggests though, the regulation seems to only apply to things that are designed to be plugged in. The old hob clearly wasnt, the new one i guess could have been though, as its just a low current ignition system.

Yes, but we're talking about appliances which require no more than 13A, and which therefore could (and often would be) 'plugged in' - so the question is what "designed to be" (plugged in) actually means. It can't really be said that ovens (≤13A) are, in general, 'not designed to be plugged in', since we know that many are supplied with fitted plugs.

Isnt there a regulation that high power fixed appliances (>2kw) shouldnt be plugged in anyway?

AFAIAA, not as such. It often gets suggested that such is the case, but that is usually on the basis of the guidance in Appendix 15 which suggests that avoiding connecting ('plugging in') such loads to ring finals is one way of helping to avoid overloading of any part of the ring final's wiring. The same consideration would presumably not apply to a radial circuit, in which all the cable is rated adequately to carry the circuit's full design current.

Kind Regards, John