Spurs from breaking into ring main

[ban-all-sheds]

Anyway - the proposal seems to be that we enthusiastically join in a race to the bottom.

I will not be going on that journey.

 

[stillp]

That should be as tolerated, or regarded as the right way to go about it, to the same extent that using amateurs who "know something about the subject" to devise regulations would be.

Who else is going to do it?

 

[JohnW2]

Who else is going to do it?

I presume that BAS's point is that he believes (I would say not unreasonably) that regulations should be written by relevant 'professionals', not 'amateurs'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I am amazed it is done by volunteers. Why do they do it?

Does Formula 1 with its billions still use volunteer marshalls etc?

 

[JohnW2]

I am amazed it is done by volunteers. Why do they do it?

In fields I work in, it is quite common for 'primary translations' to be done by people who are experts in the subject field but only 'amateurs' when it comes to translation. As a 'first stab', translations undertaken by people who properly understand the subject but are only 'amateurs' as far as language/translation is concerned are often 'better' than those undertaken by professional translators who are only 'amateurs' (i.e. don't 'have a proper understanding' of the subject material). The translators can then correct the language, but the technical stuff is usually already correct.

There are, of course, plenty of "technical translators" around, but even they can come unstuck when the subject material is specialised.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Why do they do it?

For the greater good.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Volunteers suggests they don't get paid. Is that the case?

 

[JohnW2]

Volunteers suggests they don't get paid. Is that the case?

Well ... I can't speak of the sort of things that stillp is talking about, but in terms of my experiences (in different fields) they are often/usually people already involved with the project as 'subject experts', for which they are either employed or paid appropriate fees - so, although they might not be specifically paid 'to translate' they will be remunerated for their time spent, in one way or another.

Although 'subject experts', these are usually people whose 'mother tongue' is the language into which the translation is being made. There are lots of them around, in many/most fields, these days!

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Volunteers suggests they don't get paid. Is that the case?

Depends on the country. Sometimes it's on an expenses only basis, sometimes there's a fixed allowance, sometimes nothing at all. By 'volunteers' I meant that it's not their primary job.
In my field, the procedure is often opposite to John's, in the the first pass is done by a translator, then the technical experts fix the mistakes!

I did some 'language improvement' on already-translated documents for a Japanese organisation for no fee at all. Of course, they did pay for business-class travel to Tokyo, good hotels for 3 weeks, and virtually all meals...

 

[JohnW2]

In my field, the procedure is often opposite to John's, in the the first pass is done by a translator, then the technical experts fix the mistakes!

It quite often happens like that for me, too, and I often find myself try to sort out the translator's efforts when the translation has been into English. The problem with that method is that if one has little or no understanding of the source language (which is usually the case with me!), if a translator with ,little/no knowledge of the subject field has made a mess of translating the technicalities, it can be difficult/impossible to work out what the original was trying to say - so one then either has to try to struggle with dictionaries and discussions with the initial translator or involve a second translator.

As I said, it's fortunately the case that, these days, many of my clients have a good spattering of technical folk whose first language happens to be something other than English (and quite often had at least some of their subject training in their mother tongue), so it's very often possible to find a subject-savvy person who is fluent in the language concerned.

The fun (and often quite humerous!) exercise is being asked to look at the 'back translation' of something that had (not very expertly) initially been translated from English into some other language. That is a process which is required in relation to a high proportion of the documents I deal with. It often looks like a variant of "Chinese Whispers"!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It quite often happens like that for me, too, and I often find myself try to sort out the translator's efforts when the translation has been into English. The problem with that method is that if one has little or no understanding of the source language (which is usually the case with me!), if a translator with ,little/no knowledge of the subject field has made a mess of translating the technicalities, it can be difficult/impossible to work out what the original was trying to say - so one then either has to try to struggle with dictionaries and discussions with the initial translator or involve a second translator.

As I said, it's fortunately the case that, these days, many of my clients have a good spattering of technical folk whose first language happens to be something other than English (and quite often had at least some of their subject training in their mother tongue), so it's very often possible to find a subject-savvy person who is fluent in the language concerned.

The fun (and often quite humerous!) exercise is being asked to look at the 'back translation' of something that had (not very expertly) initially been translated from English into some other language. That is a process which is required in relation to a high proportion of the documents I deal with. It often looks like a variant of "Chinese Whispers"!

That, to me, reads like nothing other than a damning indictment of using well-meaning amateurs with some knowledge of the subject, and a complete vindication of my position that it should be done properly.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Who else is going to do it?

People who are truly competent.

 

[JohnW2]

That, to me, reads like nothing other than a damning indictment of using well-meaning amateurs with some knowledge of the subject, and a complete vindication of my position that it should be done properly.

I'm not sure which bit(s) of what you quoted you are referring to, or what you mean by "done properly".

If by the latter you mean translated by someone who is an expert in the subject field and also an expert in both languages involved (including technical language), then that would obviously be the ideal - but, when highly technical and specialised material is involved, that is rarely found in professional translators - but may be true in terms of the people I mentioned in the middle paragraph of my comments which you quoted. I refer to people who are primarily subject experts, but whose first language happens to be the 'foreign' language of interest and who are also fluent in English.

In my last paragraph you quoted, the hilarious back translations are usually the result of the efforts of two professional "technical translators" (without any 'amateur' involvement) - which is theoretically the "proper" way to do it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

People who are truly competent.

Even if you could find people who are highly capable in the technical field and also in both the source and destination languages, how would they be paid, in your Utopian world?

 

[JohnW2]

Even if you could find people who are highly capable in the technical field and also in both the source and destination languages, how would they be paid, in your Utopian world?

It's not Utopia, it is a pretty common phenomenon with several of my clients.

The people in question are full-time paid employees of the company concerned, employed primarily for their 'subject expertise/ training/ experience', very often actually working on the project for which the translation is needed. They are foreign-born people, with a foreign first language, who have usually been educated up to at least first degree level (in the subject of interest) in their country (and language) of birth. They have then moved to the UK and have somewhere along the line become fluent in English. If they do the sort of work we are discussing, they do it in their salaried time, so there is no problem there.

When this is possible, it really does seem to be the best of all worlds. To have someone who is fluent in both languages (both generally and in relation to technical language associated with the field concerned) and at the same time to be a 'working subject expert' in the field concerned is something you just couldn't find in a full-time professional translator.

Kind Regards, John