Swapping kitchen lights & sockets -part P, Fire regs etc

[KevDIY]

Hi,

I've got some old R50 spot lights in the kitchen ceiling which are badly fitted (having broken the old lath and plaster with their spring clips) and aren't fire rated, and there are bedrooms above, so I'd like to swap then for modern GU10 fire rated spots in those adapter plates (or home made plaster disks) to cover the larger holes. I've also got some kitchen sockets which have dodgy switches, and all of them are lagging behind modern alternatives aesthetically, so again I'd like to swap them for modern ones.

However, I'm expecting to sell my house soon and I don't want to do anything which may cause issues with regs and certificates etc. I'm not intending to reposition anything or change wiring so I 'think' it would be okay but I'm not sure. Does anyone know if I can legitimately replace the old spots with modern GU10 spots in a kitchen, and directly replace the sockets?

Many Thanks
Kev

 

[Taylortwocities]

Of course you can, and no need to notify anyone. For some reason, gov recently removed kitchens as a "Special Location"

Please consider using LEDs to replace the downlights. Save the planet!

 

[ericmark]

Depends where you live in UK as to Part P it does vary. In the main on selling vendors want a EICR was called PIR and daft as it may seem anyone can do the inspection they do not need to be scheme members but personally I would be looking at the insurance the guy who does it holds it is an option so should be Professorial indemnity insurance.

The Installation certificates and either completion or compliance certificates do show Part P was complied with but it only came in 2004 so before that likely no paperwork so hard to ask for paperwork which never existed. Dates are important if you claim new kitchen in 2005 then clearly should have paperwork but in 2002 then likely would be non although should have still raised installation and minor works certificates but no one bothered.

Minor works certificates are still a problem. So often just not issued where work does not need notifying and again any one can write them as long as they did the work you do not need to be a scheme member to write out a Minor Works certificate.

Today in England some areas in bathroom and anything needing an installation certificate needs notifying. You do not need to notify when only a minor works certificate is required. In Wales however kitchen and outdoors is also notifiable Scotland and the islands have their own rules.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Minor works certificates are still a problem. So often just not issued where work does not need notifying

anything needing an installation certificate needs notifying. You do not need to notify when only a minor works certificate is required.

Notification and certification are separate matters.

Notification is not dependent on the certificate required.

 

[KevDIY]

Great stuff, thanks chaps. I'm in England, didn't realize it varied. Nor did I realize kitchens were no longer a special location; thats very helpful Taylortwocities so thanks for the info - I'm not planning anything that would be notifiable in a normal location so thats very reassuring. Yes I'm intending LEDs; they now seem a similar price to CFLs (in this type of bulb anyway) and are 'much' better IMO- I don't think I'll ever buy another CFL. The ceiling is wallpapered and has wooden laths in the plaster, so I don't really want to use anything hot like halogens either.

That said, I'll have to look into the minor works certificates ericmark; I didn't even know about them - I just assumed that if it wasn't notifiable then it didn't need a certificate. Not that I've done much wiring even of a minor nature, but if it includes changing fittings then thats a different story.

I suppose one other thing to consider is what happens if someone quibbles. I did some alterations to the kitchen wiring in around 2001 - 2002, which was perhaps more than minor works; at the time that wasn't a problem but I can't actually prove when it was done - there was no reason to think I'd need to. It would be unfortunate if replacing any fittings with new ones and re-doing the kitchen cast doubt on when the underlying wiring was done. I don't know how I could prove it wasn't recent, though I suppose in the same way people couldn't prove that it wasn't either, if I'm allowed to have replaced the fittings themselves.

Cheers
Kev

 

[EFLImpudence]

Page nine - there's not much to it.

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-regulations/forms/2008-amd1-forms.cfm?type=pdf

 

[Taylortwocities]

I suppose one other thing to consider is what happens if someone quibbles. I did some alterations to the kitchen wiring in around 2001 - 2002, which was perhaps more than minor works; at the time that wasn't a problem but I can't actually prove when it was done -

That was before the existence of Part P. Also new cable colours were introduced in mid 2000's and became law in 2006. So if your wiring was in the old colours (red&black, etc) the wiring could have been done at any time prior to around 2005.

Don't worry, it'll be fine…..

 

[KevDIY]

Thanks, EFL - it doesn't look too bad at all. A bit hard to do retrospectively for all the sockets I've replaced over the years, but I guess that I could test the impedances etc as they are now.

Though there'd still be no paperwork for all the older stuff (much of which was before my time) so perhaps for peace of mind, I should just get all the electrics tested professionally in their entirety, with the proper calibrated test equipment and all that. It may smooth the house-selling process when the time comes.

Cheers
Kev

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think you are worrying unnecessarily.

It would be up to any buyer to have an inspection carried out, if they bother.

After all, they may not trust yours.

 

[KevDIY]

That was before the existence of Part P. Also new cable colours were introduced in mid 2000's and became law in 2006. So if your wiring was in the old colours (red&black, etc) the wiring could have been done at any time prior to around 2005.

Don't worry, it'll be fine…..

Ah of course, I've not bought any cable since I first moved in so I'd forgotten it has changed colour. All mine was red and black - good stuff.

Cheers
Kev

 

[KevDIY]

I think you are worrying unnecessarily. It would be up to any buyer to have an inspection carried out, if they bother. After all, they may not trust yours.

Probably you're right; I'm sure what I did in the past was done properly and to the regs at the time - I've hardly done anything strange or complicated, after all. I suppose I'm just over-thinking things - if the kitchen is no longer a special area then nothing I want to do will be a problem.

Cheers
Kev

 

[RF Lighting]

There's no point at all wasting money on fire rated fittings. Your lath and plaster ceiling will burn through long before a standard downlighter will.

 

[KevDIY]

Ah, thats useful to know. I realised there was no actual requirement to upgrade to modern regs, but I 'thought' it made sense to do so in practice. However, if it makes little real difference then I could probably just make good the shoddy fitting issues without replacing the lights themselves. There do seem to be some R50 LED bulbs around too.

Thanks for that,
Kev