Taking back control?

[ajohn]

Steel isn't that simple. Pig iron isn't either. On one hand people seem to think Trump comments are straight forwards and on the other that Chinese steel is inferior. Steel is a commodity and countries have a demand and a capability for producing it. Not enough import. This is from 2019

This shows production figures for the same year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_production

More interesting one - metal is a commodity and behaves as they all tend to
https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...lower-in-2021-as-global-prices-soar-analytics

Nobody makes the stuff to give away and dumping is a way of saying they can do more than we can which usually means more efficiently as they want more of it themselves to use. Japan had the same word used against them years ago.

While looking around I noticed that USA steel producers are upgrading - molten pig iron produced and while still molten straight to conversion. It seems neither country can get enough pig iron as they want which is influencing pricing. That stuff is probably used for castings. Machine tools etc.

 

[JohnD]

Many Chinese steel mills don't have the equipment, skill level or knowledge to produce comparable quality steel to the European mills.

If people aren't willing to pay for quality, they'd be fools to take on the cost of making it.

Do you know some stories from the 1970's about Japanese Quality Control?

 

[Lower]

I likened the mask to a Miss Piggy mask (which is a fantasy character). The wearer of the mask and her gender was irrelevant. I would have made exactly the same comment if the politician had been male.

Ah, but you didn't. You likened a female politician, specifically the secretary of state for trade, to a fictional female pig with very unpleasant character traits.

You're very quick to criticise others, but it would appear that you think that a different set of rules applies to your potentially racist and misogynistic comments.

 

[Lower]

If people aren't willing to pay for quality, they'd be fools to take on the cost of making it.

Do you know some stories from the 1970's about Japanese Quality Control?

Not sure what you mean by your comments above?

I do know from personal experience that Chinese produced steel is much harder to work with than European or Korean steel. We avoid turkish mill steel for the same reason.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

You don't have to be a tree hugger to realise that sending stuff long distance that could be produced locally is nucking futs.

But how can we be Global Britain if we produce our food locally?

And we cant efficiently buy it from the EU because that means that we lose sovereignty.

So in order not to lose sovereignty or control we have to sign up to secret foreign courts which will restrict what our sovereign government can do.

Its so simple - dunno why you dont get it.

 

[JohnD]

"If people aren't willing to pay for quality, they'd be fools to take on the cost of making it."

surely that is clear?

 

[Captain Nemesis]

Although to be fair, this:

"ISDS is a system of private courts convened in camera and arbitrated by judges, allowing firms to bypass domestic civil courts."

is of only short-term concern, as the government is planning to allow itself to bypass domestic courts too.

I assume brexiteers are ok with this?

They must be.

Because they must have seen how having to bend the knee before these types of tribunals was a common price which small countries had to pay in trade deals with larger ones, they must have seen how the newspapers they kept buying described independent judges ruling on matters of law as enemies of the people, and they then went and chose a man proven to have broken the law, and promising to make changes to put himself above the law, as PM.

So yes - this is another thing that brexiters clearly wanted.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

I likened the mask to a Miss Piggy mask (which is a fantasy character). The wearer of the mask and her gender was irrelevant. I would have made exactly the same comment if the politician had been male.

Ah, but you didn't. You likened a female politician, specifically the secretary of state for trade, to a fictional female pig with very unpleasant character traits.

LIAR.

Is that a new instruction from Boris, all cabinet ministers have to wear a Miss Piggy mask?

Do you lie to people in real life, Lower?

 

[Lower]

Is that a new instruction from Boris, all cabinet ministers have to wear a Miss Piggy mask?
View attachment 235146

You posted under the wrong username Bobby and forgot to include the photo you posted alongside the your statement.

Paints a different picture when you put the two together doesn't it....

 

[Lower]

"If people aren't willing to pay for quality, they'd be fools to take on the cost of making it."

surely that is clear?

Not as clear as you might think it is.

The chinese domestic market is happy to consume domestically produced steel of a lower quality because its cheap, and the labour required to turn inconsistent steel into a decent end product is also cheap.

When that steel ends up on the world market it causes problems because its cheap and drives the headline price down, even though the quality is inferior. There are always some consumers who will take a risk and buy cheap, even though it costs them more to work.

Ironically, we're in the exact opposite situation at the moment. There is a shortage of steel in the market so the price of steel has doubled. That is encouraging some stock holders to buy inferior quality chinese steel because some consumers will accept it purely because there is a shortage. Unfortunately, the stockholders are not selling it at chinese steel prices and its catching some manufacturers out.

 

[JohnD]

if only there was a way of defining and enforcing quality standards.

remember how products can be rejected as "not to specification?"

 

[ajohn]

domestically produced steel of a lower quality

Your living in the land of nod if you think that. it's total garbage.

 

[Lower]

if only there was a way of defining and enforcing quality standards.

remember how products can be rejected as "not to specification?"

Unfortunately, the international standards for the types of steel we use have quite broad tolerances.

European mills produce steel to a much tighter tolerance within the standard than the chinese who use the full range of the tolerance. You can buy steel that complies with the standards, but is completely different in terms of its consistency within a batch. For example, if you're pressing or folding a series of components, you want each blank that you form to be consistent so that your machine setup works for each blank. You get that with European steel, you don't get that with Chinese steel.

 

[Lower]

Your living in the land of nod if you think that. it's total garbage.

The steel is garbage or my post is garbage?

 

[ajohn]

Steel is produced and sold to standards that even specs the contents and properties. That sets what it is used for also even what it can be used for. Some alloy steels are way more expensive than say straight mild steel. That doesn't mean mild is inferior.

There is a cross list of various standards here. It's a bit of a mess and increasingly only one of them is used world wide depending on industry to some extent but there are equivalents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_grades

This is some of the Chinese standards - structural stuff at the top of the list. One of the cheaper grades as loads are used but it still has to meet a spec. Metals generally always have to what ever they are being used for.
https://www.theworldmaterial.com/chinese-gb-standard/

If some one wants to know an equivalent then the info is around
http://www.steelnumber.com/en/equivalent_steel_iron_country_eu.php?type_id=1&zcountry=30

The UK tried to compete on more exotic stuff a while ago and also before that produced all sort here. Unfortunately unlike when the industrial revolution started there isn't a place where all of the materials needed are that can meet demand. The first one was in the Iron Bridge area, iron ore, coal and limestone.

Some good news maybe, it's been looked at. We may be able to be self sufficient in Lithium via Cornish Tin mines that are no longer used. Tin had the same problem as steel and cast iron as did copper. Gold is still mined to some extent but in rather small quantities.