Tests required where property let

[JohnW2]

I'm also puzzled about this. Are you saying that you can give tenants a list of potential risks - e.g. shower faulty, electric shock from oven if you touch it, juliet balcony held up with duct tape - rather than rectify any faults, then it's ok?

I can but presume that the implication of what he said was that one undertakes risk assessments, undertakes what remedial or other work may be indicated by those assessments and then provide the tenant with documentation of the risk assessment and any actions taken as a result of it. It would obviously make no sense to do as you suggest and document a risk assessment which had identified things that needed intention but do nothing about those required actions!

However, as others have said, I don't understand the suggestion that provision of such documentation is a pre-requisite of "being able to get the tenants out". That sounds extremely unlikely.

As for the risk assessment in relation to Legionella (if it is needed/done), I'm not sure that it would be adequate to just observe that the DHW was regularly brought to above 60°C. Is not the greater potential risk (in the presence of sources of possible atomisation, like the jacuzzis and pumped showers I mentioned) any stored cold water that could be involved?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Doggit]

Not according to the link I posted above. It says there's no need to document the assessment at all

If you continue the link to the next one, at the end of the page, it will show (possibly imply might be a better word) that you need to prove that you've taken adequate steps to ensure the restriction of Legionella. Hence having to give the tenants the assessment when they move in, and to prove that they've received it. I have been advised by my landlords association that If I haven't given them the assessment, then court action can't be taken to evict them should if be necessary, and this is different to the deposit protection scheme.

HSE and Local Authority inspectors do not proactively inspect domestic premises or ask for evidence that landlords have undertaken a risk assessment. However, if a tenant were to contract Legionnaires’ disease from the water system in their home, the landlord may be liable to prosecution under HSWA, and would have to demonstrate to a court that they had fulfilled their legal duty, so it is important that they assess and control the risks (see

But I'd like to thank you for bringing that case to my attention John, as I'll now make an amendment to the standard assessment that I give out to reiterate the steps they need to take in view of holidays, and keeping the shower heads clean. Not that any ony my tenants have contracted Legionnaires disease in 20 years.

Hawkeye, take note for your next tenancy; but are you a member of any of the landlord associations, as they keep me up to date on legislation.

Are you saying that you can give tenants a list of potential risks

No I'm not; the legislation only covers Legionellas assessment of potential risks. Everything else in the property has to be kept in good condition, otherwise the tenants can report you to environmental health, or worse, and legislation now stops revenge evictions if they report you for any breaches of legislation or safety.

 

[JohnW2]

I have been advised by my landlords association that If I haven't given them the assessment, then court action can't be taken to evict them should if be necessary ....

I have to say that that makes absolutely no sense - the reasons why you might want to evict tenants surely have got nothing to do with whether or not you have provided them with a Legionnella risk assessment?. If I were you (and if the answer mattered to me) I would definitely be asking a decent lawyer for a second opinion.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Doggit]

I believe it's down to the never ending extension of tenants rights, regardless of whether they are good tenants or not. Labour were terrible at assuming all landlords are criminals, and tenants perfect, and the Tories (whilst not so bad) still seem to be strengthening their right even further. You have to cross every T, and dot every I, and then prove you've done it, before you can take any action against a tenants that is causing you hell simply because they know just how much they can get away with.

 

[John D v2.0]

you need to prove that you've taken adequate steps to ensure the restriction of Legionella. Hence having to give the tenants the assessment when they move in, and to prove that they've received it.

All I could find was
"""
Landlords are not necessarily required to record the findings of the assessment (this is only a statutory duty for employers where there are five or more employees), but they may find it prudent to keep a record of what has been done for their own purposes.
"""
So I don't see how what you said follows, unless you employ 5 or more people and they live there.

I have been advised by my landlords association that If I haven't given them the assessment, then court action can't be taken to evict them should if be necessary, and this is different to the deposit protection scheme.

Well they can advise what they like, it doesn't mean it's right, could be superstition for all anyone knows!

 

[John D v2.0]

You have to cross every T, and dot every I, and then prove you've done it, before you can take any action against a tenants that is causing you hell simply because they know just how much they can get away with.

I think you need to sack your landlords association and read up on landlord and tenant law yourself (it's all freely available on official websites) and then you'll have a better outlook on the ins and outs of all this!

 

[Doggit]

So I don't see how what you said follows, unless you employ 5 or more people and they live there

If you also check the link you initially gave, you'll notice that a landlord is considered as a self employed person, and their tenants as employees for the purposes of this legislation.

Sorry John, are you a landlord by any chance. I use the services of a landlords association (landlords.org.uk) so that I don't have to do all the relevant checking myself. Now I could well be wrong, but it's a simple thing to do, so why shouldn't I just do it, and protect my back, even if it is wrong.

 

[John D v2.0]

If you also check the link you initially gave, you'll notice that a landlord is considered as a self employed person, and their tenants as employees for the purposes of this legislation.

Tenants are non employed people as far as I could see
"""Landlords, under Section 53 of HSWA are regarded as being self-employed and tenants fall into the class of “other persons (not being his employees)”."""

However I do see your point, if it's cheap and easy to do, then you might as well do it!

 

[JohnW2]

If you also check the link you initially gave, you'll notice that a landlord is considered as a self employed person, and their tenants as employees for the purposes of this legislation.

Are we looking at the same document? ....

Landlords, under Section 53 of HSWA are regarded as being self-employed and tenants fall into the class of “other persons (not being his employees)”.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Doggit]

Yes, unfortunately I'm tired dyslexic and fed up today. Thanks for the correction.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, unfortunately I'm tired dyslexic and fed up today. Thanks for the correction.

You're welcome.

Further on in that post, you wrote ...

Now I could well be wrong, but it's a simple thing to do, so why shouldn't I just do it, and protect my back, even if it is wrong.

That's fair enough, provided that it is simple. As the HSE document says, it is often straightforward, such that a landlord will often himself/herself feel able and competent to undertake a risk assessment in relation to Legionella - and, if it were me, I would be happy to so that in the straightforward situations.

However, speaking for myself, I do not think I would feel competent to undertake such an assessment if, for example, there were a cold water storage tank in the property, so would probably have to pay someone to do it. However, you may feel competent to do it yourself, even in that situation.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Doggit]

I'm lucky in that all my properties have combi boilers, so the risk of Legionella is low, and I just have to advise the tenants to keep the temperature at about 55C (I know, most times it's considered 60C), and that they need to run the taps with the windows open if they've been away for a week or so.

But if it were a tank, I might also be tempted to get someone more professional to do the assessment, as it'd only be a one off scenario. I can see Hawkeyes cynicism though, as landlords are really being made to jump through the hoops nowadays.

And thanks for the links John, I've learnt a lot from them.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I use the services of a landlords association (landlords.org.uk) so that I don't have to do all the relevant checking myself. Now I could well be wrong, but it's a simple thing to do, so why shouldn't I just do it, and protect my back, even if it is wrong.

That sounds more like an agent who would have an electrical check carried out to cover their own backs even though it is not a legal requirement.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You've obviously never rented if you think deposit protection or gas safety certificates are a money making racket.

Hawkeye thinks (if you can call any of the random electrical impulses in his head "thinking") that all regulations are a money making racket.

 

[ericmark]

Hang on you Guys he lives in Scotland. I don't know all Scottish regulations but I do know he has to have a EICR done by some one with resent training and a lot more often than every 10 years. And in Scotland it's law not a recommendation.

Since I live in Wales I am not really interested is Scottish regulations, but I do know they are not the same as England. So I would say unless a reply says "In Scotland you can" then any replies with location London, Portugal, Kent, Buckinghamshire or even United Kingdom consider with a pinch of salt. OK if either from Scotland or near the boarder or they acknowledge they refer to Scottish regulations.