The truth about 'Road Pricing'...

[ellal]

But they didn't really want to tell you about it...

'Real Time' use of the congestion charge cameras was supposed to be about fighting terrorism...however, papers released by mistake show that police will be able to access the cameras for any reason...of course by 'police' that will actually include civilians within the system!

And the reason we weren't supposed to know?...because the government had dismissed the charge that they were wanting to set up a vehicle tracking scheme, and yet this is exactly what is happening bit by bit!

Sure, road pricing will raise money, but the real gem is the surveillance system!

Link

any move to allow number plate data to be sent in bulk from third parties to the police to assist crime fighting would only be taken after very extensive consultation across government

No mention of public debate as usual...what was that about listening?..

Of course 'third parties' wil eventually mean all cctv....despite protestations to the contrary, when a country and it's population comes under routine police surveillance, then a police state is already well on the way!

 

[Softus]

however, papers released by mistake show that police will be able to access the cameras for any reason...of course by 'police' that will actually include civilians within the system!

That's so not very interesting. The police can find my whereabouts using information given by my mobile phone provider, and I don't care who knows where my car is or what speed it's doing.

And the reason we weren't supposed to know?...because the government had dismissed the charge that they were wanting to set up a vehicle tracking scheme, and yet this is exactly what is happening bit by bit!

So, you believed the government and it lied.

Sure, road pricing will raise money, but the real gem is the surveillance system!
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any move to allow number plate data to be sent in bulk from third parties to the police to assist crime fighting would only be taken after very extensive consultation across government

I would be suspicious of the motives of anyone who cares.

Of course 'third parties' wil eventually mean all cctv....despite protestations to the contrary, when a country and it's population comes under routine police surveillance, then a police state is already well on the way!

Ah, that old one. The police state has been well on its way for some time now. Bring it on, I say!

 

[ellal]

So, you believed the government and it lied.

Nope - just the opposite...it's just that some folks think it paranoia if you point out the glaringly obvious..

The police can find my whereabouts using information given by my mobile phone provider, and I don't care who knows where my car is or what speed it's doing.

You can switch off your phone on your journey if you wish..you can't do that with a camera..

I'm not on about speed cameras here, just that another bit of privacy is slowly being eroded..

I would be suspicious of the motives of anyone who cares.

Ah - the old 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' chestnut..

If you've got nothing to hide, why do they still want to track you?

 

[tim west]

Softus I agree with you on that one! The police state has always been here and we have been controlled and manouvered for ages without even realising it, well some of us have realised.
Having worked in media for many years now I have seen how information is twisted in order to portray a viewpoint, a good job of doing so is even done on this forum in some of the posts
Is it no wonder that governments have by legislation the right to take over mainstream broadcasters to use as a public broadcasting service in case of war or emergency, yeah right! as if political interference isnt already rife within the industry! that they need the excuse of war to do so.
The governments puppets are already installed in places of power within broadcasting institutions.

 

[Softus]

So, you believed the government and it lied.

Nope - just the opposite...it's just that some folks think it paranoia if you point out the glaringly obvious.

So, you disbelieve the government and it didn't lie.

The police can find my whereabouts using information given by my mobile phone provider, and I don't care who knows where my car is or what speed it's doing.

You can switch off your phone on your journey if you wish..you can't do that with a camera.

If I switch my phone off it doesn't ring.

I'm not on about speed cameras here, just that another bit of privacy is slowly being eroded.

Privacy, schmivacy. If you want to do something in private, go and lock yourself in a toilet. Or go to France, where there's tons of room. Otherwise, just assume that someone's watching.

I would be suspicious of the motives of anyone who cares.

Ah - the old 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' chestnut..

Perhaps you just don't trust things that people have been saying for a long time. I don't know. In any case the one I'm roasting is about caring, not the one about fearing.

If you've got nothing to hide, why do they still want to track you?

Because "they" (sic.) don't trust me. I thought that would be obvious to anyone.

 

[ellal]

Because "they" (sic.) don't trust me. I thought that would be obvious to anyone.

Bingo! - and because they don't trust you, they suspect you...but it's not just the fact that you may commit a crime - it's the fact that you may disagree!

Tracking in this way will probably not catch a terrorist BEFORE he commits an act, but how many times do you think this will be used to stop protesters moving about lawfully? (something that has actually happened using anpr as I've posted before)...how many times will 'person's of interest' be detained just long enough to prevent them doing something the government objects too...

Even if you have nothing to hide criminal wise, everyone has something else to hide - their individuality!

Criminals of course will carry on cloning plates and not registering vehicles correctly!

Privacy, schmivacy. If you want to do something in private, go and lock yourself in a toilet. Or go to France, where there's tons of room. Otherwise, just assume that someone's watching.

That someone can think that lowly about one of their basic rights is something that should make us afraid!

 

[Stulz]

I understand the arguments of those on both sides of this debate. I can see the security benefits that can be gleaned by such a monitored society, however I do have some serious concerns.

Please bear in mind my former life and how I earned a living in the Security Forces, so I can honestly comment on this from a detailed and personal experience perspective.

The problem with the government having the ability to follow the public about in this way is open to abuse, by the Police, the security services in general, and the Political elite. Control of the population is directly possible by manipulation and psychological means. The Police are a tool, as are the security services, they answer to the Political establishment and it would be easy for the Political elite to issue instructions to those using the camera system to monitor individuals who object to Government Policy in order to discredit them or simply interfere with their freedom of movement.

The system would allow the security services to monitor terror suspects and establish their network of contacts, thus providing a possible means to infiltrate them and cause disruption, but the negative side of this is that it can also be used in the exact same manner to disrupt legitimate and legal opposition to the Government.

We must not be myopic, we must take off the rose tinted spectacles, and see the world we live in as it truly is. If we want freedom, then we have to ask ourselves what we are willing to sacrifice for that freedom, however our freedom should not be sacrificed in order to apparently achieve it. We must accept that with freedoms comes responsibility and certain risks. The threat from Terrorists is real, but should we give up the very freedom we prize so much to enable our life to continue? Without our freedom we have no life, the terrorists have won and we have altered our world as a direct response to their actions or the threat of their actions.

Allowing the Police and Security services access to this information is dangerous. It cannot be regulated in the way people think as humans will always abuse that regulation. It is a slippery slope of social control and influence and should not be allowed to happen.

The way to combat crime and terrorism is more visible and increased Policing, education of the Public to spot the suspicious, re-engage the Public with the security services and Educate the security services/Police that they are members of the public too and on how to treat people. Lastly we need a sea change in foriegn Policy to mitigate some of the reasons for terror groups to target this country.

Draconian monitoring of the public will only disengage the public from Government and the Police, build distrust in all camps, and likely lead to civil unrest on an unprecedented scale, and thus should be avoided.

 

[gas4you]

If they can track you for road charging purposes then they will be monitoring your speed at any moment in time on any stretch of road. Speed cameras will become a thing of the past and every road will be clogged up with traffic moving slow enough to be stunt drivers in a hollywood B movie. (or casualty )

I bet the police will still end up shooting the wrong person, even with all this monitoring

 

[masona]

Very good post Stulz, this is why I'm also against ID card for that reason.

 

[esra_ptrap]

Excellent post Stulz.

What this government fails to see is that by eating away at our freedom to live our life as we wish (within the law of course) ... In the interests of combatting terrorism ... It is doing the terrorists job for them.

2 World wars later and our own government is prepared to give away those rights so many people gave their lives to protect and the vast majority of our apathetic population don't give a damn ... Even the schools are preparing to take Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler out of the history curriculum ... Hmmmmmmnnnnn!

 

[ellal]

Have to agree - an excellent post Stulz...

They are my fears too, and put in a very eloquent way!

Unfortunately the government 'juggernaut' continues on it's merry way...a report tonight says that the 'transport innovation fund' is being used to pressurise councils to 'sign up' for road pricing (and the inherent surveillance) , or get no new roads or improvements at all!..

 

[joe-90]

Lastly we need a sea change in foriegn Policy to mitigate some of the reasons for terror groups to target this country.

Appease the terrorist eh?
Give one group of terrorists what they want and you'll have another group going for the same stunt. Back down once and you'll always have to back down.

 

[BoxBasher]

how many times do you think this will be used to stop protesters moving about lawfully? (something that has actually happened using anpr as I've posted before)...

Usually stopped to prevent a breach of the peace or public order offences.

Some of those "protestors" stopped are damn nearly terrorists themselves.

I visited a customer once who I had to phone before arriving so I could be buzzed in to her gate. Why? Because 2 weeks before some "protestors" had posted a parcel to her daughter on her eighth birthday containing an incendiary device (which they luckily sussed out before it was opened).

Not all terrorists have beards...

 

[Deluks]

Lastly we need a sea change in foriegn Policy to mitigate some of the reasons for terror groups to target this country.

Appease the terrorist eh?
Give one group of terrorists what they want and you'll have another group going for the same stunt. Back down once and you'll always have to back down.

I think the point being made is that if we stop interfering in other peoples (countries) business, then they (the terrorists) might stay out of our business.
One of the biggest myths in the 'war on terror' is that these people exist purely to disrupt and destroy our way of life regardless of anything else. When the reality is they are reacting to western foreign policy which amounts to 'lets take control of all the oil' or something like that.

 

[Stulz]

Lastly we need a sea change in foriegn Policy to mitigate some of the reasons for terror groups to target this country.

Appease the terrorist eh?
Give one group of terrorists what they want and you'll have another group going for the same stunt. Back down once and you'll always have to back down.

Joe, firstly let me say this, your taking that comment out of context.

Changing your foreign policy is not the same as pandering to terrorists, and I for one would be appalled and outraged at such an idea. I have fought these bar stewards, I have lost friends and colleagues to them, and whilst some, such as the Palestinians, have valid arguments, they have no excuse for murder, intimidation or any other activity that is not in compliance with the laws of the nation they live in or any other.

I did several tours in Ulster in my time, and I had occasion to exchange rounds with members of several Republican groups, they always lost as you may be aware by me still being here. I accept that the Republicans have a valid argument, why should they be ruled by Westminster (lets not debate that here), however I do not agree with the method they chose to vent their anger and frustration. Murder can never be justified.

Changing our Policy of blindly following the US will be a good thing, the UK has influence in the Middle East, it is respected in many parts of the region, however whilst there is this blind following of US policy, or the apparent blind following, then things will always be difficult.

The UK has a long history in the region, some good, some terrible, but most mediocre, what we should do is actively look for solutions that work in the interests of the poeple that live their, whether they are Christian, Jewish or Muslim. All of these people have the right to live in peace, and the UK can be a part of helping that process with a little adaption of our Policies.

That is not the same as pandering to the Terrorists.