UKIP - a 'one trick pony'?

[jeds]

I think it would be quite difficult to paint that as a racist agenda.

It's a common sense agenda that puts our interests first -which is what governments are supposed to do, but don't. Also, most of the pledges are old school Tory in tone. All of this will draw in flack from certain quarters.

Agree, a lot of common sense. Unfortunately it all rests on number one which, ironically, is impossible now because of UKIP.

 

[JBR]

No 48 mentions bespoke global trade agreements which is a little unclear as to what they mean.

Thanks for your comments. I thought this was pretty clear, actually. At the moment, we are tied to trade agreements with EU countries and any with non-EU countries must be agreed with Brussels. If and when we leave the EU, we would be free to agree our own bespoke trade agreements with whichever countries we want. Certainly, I would expect this to include Commonwealth countries against whom we turned our back when we joined the EU. Some would criticise such a thing, insisting that the rest of the EU would take the hump and decide not to trade with us, but that is most unlikely as we currently import more from them than we export to them.

Moves to regulate and control banking and corporate activities should be in any parties agenda.

Yes, I strongly agree with that. Unfortunately, I don't think any political party has promised to do anything of the sort.

 

[AronSearle]

Thanks, everyone, for reading and responding, especially as it's such a long list. It's interesting that no-one has (yet) criticised anything on the list!

It is winning an 'argument' by attrition, who can be arsed to disprove a 100 long list of things?

What I will say is the following

Most of it is meaningless waffle, we will do X without actually saying in detail how we will do X (WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT). For instance UKIP are always saying they will take us out of the EU, but the how is VERY important, and their policies on this are contradictory and incomplete (plenty of stuff out there how it can be done, but not by UKIP). So on the most important headline item they have no real plan, the details on lower headline stuff it is no better.

Where they do say how they will do it, it is garbage. Like adopting the aussie style points system to control immigration, well this is garbage because the aussies have a huge immigration problem despite this. Our immigration problems are not due to how we check people in and such, but a whole raft of reasons that an aussie style system would have no effect upon.

In both instances UKIP don’t do detail, just headlines.

It is the detail that matters.

 

[JBR]

Agree, a lot of common sense. Unfortunately it all rests on number one which, ironically, is impossible now because of UKIP.

1. Get Britain out of the European Union

Why should this be impossible because of UKIP? Given the chance, UKIP would hold an immediate referendum on that matter.

Cameron has 'promised' a referendum in 2017, or even later, unless he does another U-turn of course, or includes a number of 'conditions'!

 

[AronSearle]

[Why should this be impossible because of UKIP? Given the chance, UKIP would hold an immediate referendum on that matter.

Because UKIP have no idea how to pull out of the EU, using existing mechanisms within treaties, and to negotiate new treaties, they put down no detail of how it will be done, and when they do it is half pinched from someone else, they parrot these policies with no understanding of them.

Their EMP's act like children in the euro parliament.

And farage is an a buffoon that constantly say’s stupid contradictory things and has far too much power in UKIP, he won’t get away with the ‘frank speaking man o the people’ when held under proper scrutiny.

Come a referendum these issues will become clear, and the case for pulling out of Europe will be ruined by them as it will be better to stay within the EU than allow these bumbling drunken idiots to manage an exit.

Pulling out of the EU has to be managed well, there has to be a plan with timescales and targets, there has to be detail, they will need contingency plans.

It basically needs a lot of very dry boring people, not Mr I love my pint and fag farage.

They haven’t got a clue, and their incompetency would hand the ‘stay in’ crowd all the ammo they need.

No one will vote out under those conditions, that is why UKIP is actually harming our prospects of getting out of the EU.

 

[Micilin]

I'm always worried when UKIP say they are taking 'Britain' out of the EU.

what about the rest of the UK, are they leaving that in the EU?

I suppose, literally speaking, that would exclude Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands, although I'm sure the sentiment was well meant and that NI and the CI would hesitate before deciding to remain in the EU!

I'm just worried that people who paint themselves as patriotic etc don't even know the name of the country they live in. A slight also to those in NI who see themselves as an integral part of the UK.

If they want to be taken seriously on this, they need to get the details right.

And you raise a great point too, what about the IoM and CI who are not part of the UK?

I don't think that those 'territories' would seriously not follow the UK, but people who discuss these things should be aware of the detail. If they have not, then have they really thought it through?

 

[JBR]

[Why should this be impossible because of UKIP? Given the chance, UKIP would hold an immediate referendum on that matter.

Because UKIP have no idea how to pull out of the EU, using existing mechanisms within treaties, and to negotiate new treaties, they put down no detail of how it will be done, and when they do it is half pinched from someone else, they parrot these policies with no understanding of them.

How do you know?

I'm not sure it's difficult at all, provided it is what the voting population want.

At the moment, Greece is a possible contender for leaving the EU. That is seen as perfectly permissible, and by all accounts they could take all the EU 'donations' with them!

Although we have all but signed away our sovereignty, in practice we are still within our rights to leave the EU. We have not been irrevocably conquered yet. Treaties have been rescinded before now, and new treaties can be instated. Has David Cameron explained how he would leave the EU, in the unlikely event that he should actually hold his promised referendum? I'm sure the procedure is already in place. It just requires the electorate to state clearly that that is what they want, and for the government at the time to honour their duty to serve the people of this country.

The only thing holding up our leaving the EU is the voting population deciding whether they want it or not. Fortunately, even if we can't bring ourselves to take that step, there is a distinct possibility that growing disenchantment of the EU amongst many of its members will carry the day anyway and cause the organisation to fall apart.

 

[AronSearle]

How do you know?

What do you mean "How do I know" they have no plan on Europe?

Because I read stuff, because plenty of people write about this, because they don't have one, other than to quote the titles of some articles that allow mechanisms to pull out?

I'm not sure it's difficult at all, provided it is what the voting population want.

Yea Ok mate, pull the other one its got bells on it.

The EU has been 50+ years in the making with regards to legislation. Trade agreements are not trivial, the EU has been trying to negotiate a trade agreement with the US for decades, and the terms are making people cringe. All sorts of regulation still needs to be adhered to to trade within the EU regardless of membership, trade tarrifs exist for many non EU nations. Much of our trade is with, or goes through the EU, distruption of this would cause a rescission, it can be done, but it can also be royally screwed up.

But 'if the voting public want it' = it will be done! And it isn’t difficult to negotiate trade agreements with the EU.



This is the kind of ignorant clueless waffle UKIP spout.

You need a plan, a detailed plan made by boring grey suits who do detail, others on the negotiation table will want stuff, we will want stuff. Farage's idea of pulling out of europe is about as detailed and sensible as "if I pull out you wont get pregnant".

 

[Dave54]

Looks like a fairly straightforward and sensible list to me. Doesn't seem to have too much of the "if, but, when" conditional wording so beloved by generations of politicians to give them an "out" later on for why promises were broken.

If I was a politician in one of the other parties, i'd be very worried about UKIP.
If they don't get in this time, then I reckon another five years of mismanagement by either one of the red or the blue teams will see them with a good chance.

 

[RNReindeer]

[Why should this be impossible because of UKIP? Given the chance, UKIP would hold an immediate referendum on that matter.

Because UKIP have no idea how to pull out of the EU, using existing mechanisms within treaties, and to negotiate new treaties, they put down no detail of how it will be done, and when they do it is half pinched from someone else, they parrot these policies with no understanding of them.

How do you know?

I'm not sure it's difficult at all, provided it is what the voting population want.

At the moment, Greece is a possible contender for leaving the EU. That is seen as perfectly permissible, and by all accounts they could take all the EU 'donations' with them!

Despite their statement today that they intend to repay the debt, but want to renegotiate the terms?

Although we have all but signed away our sovereignty, in practice we are still within our rights to leave the EU. We have not been irrevocably conquered yet. Treaties have been rescinded before now, and new treaties can be instated. Has David Cameron explained how he would leave the EU, in the unlikely event that he should actually hold his promised referendum? I'm sure the procedure is already in place. It just requires the electorate to state clearly that that is what they want, and for the government at the time to honour their duty to serve the people of this country.

No plan has yet been fomulated because as yet no plan is needed.
You don't plan your jouney until you've made the decision to make the journey. Only a fool plans a jouney in case they decide to tavel.
On the other hand, if planning the journey is part of the decision making process, e.g. if I want to go, how difficult is it? Then the journey should be planned prior to the decision.
Certainly, once the decision is made, as in UKIP, the planning must follow. Otherwise the way is lost. A wise man may breifly plan the journey to see how credible it is before stating his intention to make the journey.

The only thing holding up our leaving the EU is the voting population deciding whether they want it or not. Fortunately, even if we can't bring ourselves to take that step, there is a distinct possibility that growing disenchantment of the EU amongst many of its members will carry the day anyway and cause the organisation to fall apart.

Surely your hope and statement that the EU will fall apart is predicated on your assumption of growing disenchantment.
So, on what is your assumption of growing disenchantment based?

Finally, let's do a silly comparison of the electioneering etc, to a horse race.
You have quite a few horses from recognised stables with some vast amount of form behind them.
And you have another horse who promises to win, not to fall, etc, but it has no form for this race. It has form for other races, but in those races it refused to participate and tried to cause as much disruption as possible. Would you back that horse?

 

[wkdhd]

If I was a politician in one of the other parties, i'd be very worried about UKIP.

They might get a couple of seats, not too much of a worry

 

[RNReindeer]

If I was a politician in one of the other parties, i'd be very worried about UKIP.

They might get a couple of seats, not too much of a worry

Unless they do their usual trick of being offensive and trying to disrupt the proceedings.

 

[Norcon]

Just invoke article 51 of the EU treaty. Simples.

The eu is gonna fail any rode so best we are gone when it does.
Over 50% of our exports now go worldwide and will increase without the strangle hold of the eu.
In any case we buy more from the eu than they buy from us so the trade agreements are the vested interest priority of what remains of the eu after we leave.

 

[JBR]

How do you know?

What do you mean "How do I know" they have no plan on Europe?

Because I read stuff

Surprisingly, I 'read stuff' too.

Have you read all the plans and proposals that UKIP have? Even the ones yet to be published?

No, neither have I.

As Norcon has explained, it's not rocket science.

 

[jeds]

Agree, a lot of common sense. Unfortunately it all rests on number one which, ironically, is impossible now because of UKIP.

1. Get Britain out of the European Union

Why should this be impossible because of UKIP? Given the chance, UKIP would hold an immediate referendum on that matter.

Cameron has 'promised' a referendum in 2017, or even later, unless he does another U-turn of course, or includes a number of 'conditions'!

The only remote possibility was a referendum under the Tories. I don't see the point in working on the basis that they might renege on the promise. Of course they might but, given the strength of feeling, it would be political suicide. It would be nice to think we could get the vote under a third party - like UKIP - but it simply will not happen. The plain truth is that they are not politically organised enough and - despite Farage's efforts to clean it up - they do attract far too many nutcases and extremists. No, it will be a Labour government in May. And, dread of all dreads, that might even be some sort of Lab/Dem/Green/Scottish coalition. There will be a party in Brussells when that happens. I just hope Gideon hides the cheque book when he leaves.