What is going on with this switch wiring?

[AndyPRK]

I think this was an ATTEMPT to get rid of a borrowed neutral (or live! Technically) which was done incorrectly.

Yes he had lots of other things to fix there which he was contracted for.

He was correct that there is no quick or easy fix for this.
More wires required between upstairs and downstairs. 3 are required in total.
Or as said wireless.

 

[aptsys]

What I don't understand is that there is an RCBO board, so presumably there has to have been alteration work on the borrowed neutral?

I didn't watch the whole video as the audio was so poor, but either that 3C&E was part of an alteration for the borrowed neutral putting the downstairs hall light on the same circuit as the upstairs lights or the two circuits have not been separated. It would have only taken 5 minutes to test and trace everything out, but I'm suspecting that upstairs switch is actually at fault.

I think this was an ATTEMPT to get rid of a borrowed neutral (or live! Technically) which was done incorrectly.

Yes he had lots of other things to fix there which he was contracted for.

He was correct that there is no quick or easy fix for this.
More wires required between upstairs and downstairs. 3 are required in total.
Or as said wireless.

Most likely the hall light has been put onto the same circuit and separated from the rest of the downstairs lighting. There appears to be everything that's required in those pattresses as the 3C&E has the L,N and SL. There's two sets of cables going to downstairs and another two in the downstairs switch - the rest will be in the rose in the hall light.

 

[AndyPRK]

You guys are thinking what a competent person would have done to fix this. (which is the wrong thought process).
I don't believe this has ever worked correctly when more that 1 RCD was fitted.

I don't believe there are 2 sets of cables going down stairs. Just 1.

The 2 cables you see downstairs are:

1 - Downstairs Live and switched live for downstairs light
2 - 2 wires going upstairs (originally strappers when installed in 1968 or whatever)

 

[aptsys]

You guys are thinking what a competent person would have done to fix this. (which is the wrong thought process).
I don't believe this has ever worked correctly when more that 1 RCD was fitted.

I don't believe there are 2 sets of cables going down stairs. Just 1.

The 2 cables you see downstairs are:

1 - Downstairs Live and switched live for downstairs light
2 - 2 wires going upstairs (originally strappers when installed in 1968 or whatever)

There appears to be 3 cables leaving that upstairs switch though

 

[dannyboi2003]

What I don't understand is that there is an RCBO board, so presumably there has to have been alteration work on the borrowed neutral?

A borrowed neutral was never mentioned in the video, for all we know the hallway light was incorporated into the upstairs lighting circuit to avoid that problem when the circuit was wired, or the house lights are all on one circuit. However it’s been wired it doesn’t look like there have been any recent alterations to that wiring as it’s all in old colours and the switches looked very well painted in.

 

[dannyboi2003]

I don't believe there are 2 sets of cables going down stairs. Just 1.

There is quite clearly 2 x T&E entering the bottom of the upstairs switch box, I think it’s fairly safe to assume they come from the floor space. Jordan even said in the video that one was connected as the feed to the rose via the 3C&E.

The landing light could have been wired as part of the downstairs circuit with another feed going up somewhere else to feed the other upstairs lights.

However it’s wired I don’t believe there is a borrowed neutral here and if there ever was it was fixed a long time ago. Jordan said the light did work but the two way switching did not which either means one of the switches is faulty or one leg of the strappers is broken somewhere.

 

[AndyPRK]

There isn't currently a borrowed neutral, as the 2 way facility has been removed so the upstairs light only works from the upstairs switch.
I don't believe it has been 'fixed' however

Danny - If you believe that draw a diagram on a bit of paper and prove to yourself how it all works (including the downstairs light)

 

[aptsys]

Looks pretty straightforward to me.

3C&E from landing light - L(R) N(B) SL(Y)
T&E from landing switch to downstairs switch = strappers (R + B)
T&E from landing switch to hall rose = L(R) and N(B) from the Red and Blue 3C&E
T&E from hall rose to hall switch = L(R) and SL(B)
Hall switch uses L(R) for the common terminals on both switches providing the permanent live for both of the lights.

Landing switch is faulty or broken strapper.

 

[SUNRAY]

WOW what an amazing amount of assumptions going on. These pretty much sum up my thoughts:

It would have only taken 5 minutes to test and trace everything out,

A borrowed neutral was never mentioned in the video... However it’s been wired it doesn’t look like there have been any recent alterations to that wiring as it’s all in old colours and the switches looked very well painted in.

Anything else is total guess work and with the information presented before us such guessing is pointless. Suggestions as to what testing should be done would be a different matter.

 

[SUNRAY]

Looks pretty straightforward to me.

3C&E from landing light - L(R) N(B) SL(Y)
T&E from landing switch to downstairs switch = strappers (R + B)
T&E from landing switch to hall rose = L(R) and N(B) from the Red and Blue 3C&E
T&E from hall rose to hall switch = L(R) and SL(B)
Hall switch uses L(R) for the common terminals on both switches providing the permanent live for both of the lights.

Landing switch is faulty or broken strapper.

I confess this was my instant assumption BUT my next assumption is he would have tested and verified that soooo quickly and boasted about it.
Unless of course he isn't capable of such simple actions. [Not a critisism or insult]

 

[AndyPRK]

I think there are educated assumptions going on. Based on how the house would be been wired when built. And the capability of the persons installing the dual RCD CU previously.

I don't believe it could have been resolved in 5 minutes as a wire is missing between downstairs and upstairs for said lights to function off more than one RCD/MCB/RCBO

 

[SUNRAY]

I think there are educated assumptions going on. Based on how the house would be been wired when built. And the capability of the persons installing the dual RCD CU previously.

I don't believe it could have been resolved in 5 minutes as a wire is missing between downstairs and upstairs for said lights to function off more than one RCD/MCB/RCBO

It would have only taken 5 minutes to test and trace everything out,

Fixing MAY be a totally different ball game.
If my [and aptsys] assumption of wiring is correct:

then it really would have only taken a few minutes to:
a) locate the fault or
b) prove that is not the way it's wired. and
c) repairing may have taken a lot longer

BUT AS IT IS WE HAVE NO IDEA, other than assumptions, WHAT IS THERE AND FOR THAT MATTER WHAT THE SYMPTOMS OF THE 'FAULT' ARE AS THE OPERATION OF SWITCHES AND THE EFFECT HAVE NOT BEEN DEMONSTRATED OR DESCRIBED. All I've heard so far is all the switches are old and need replacing... Hardly a professionals diagnosis especially as I still have a number of those exact switches in my home which behave perfectly.

 

[AndyPRK]

That's is certainly a creative idea.

However

1) I don't believe that is how the red and black wires would have been routed when the house was built in the 60's. It's a possibility it is like that now.
2) Jordan said the switch strappers were not connected like this.


What we did hear was that the upstairs light only works off the upstairs switch.
We didn't hear the light only works if the downstairs switch is in a certain position (a symptom of a faulty contact or connection). In fact he changed the downstairs switch with no improvement

Yes the "switches are old and need replacing... " was very poor. And he proved himself wrong when he changed a switch (downstairs hall). And had to change it back lol

 

[aptsys]

Still guessing here, but I would assume this is how it was originally wired.

Given one piece of T&E looks to be quite different to the other (grey jacket is stuck to the inner core) I don't think the T&E from the switch to the downstairs rose or the 3C&E existed previously. A single red was probably originally between the landing switch and the landing light as was common in the 60's.

 

[securespark]

I still have a number of those exact switches in my home which behave perfectly.

TBF to Jordan, in my career, especially when I was visiting multiple customers every day, I have seen thousands of faulty light switches. Of those, a great many have been that exact style of Crabtree switch and all of them (eventually) breakdown because the rocker mechanism fails.