What qualifications should I expect to see?

[classybird]

Hia, if someone is doing a full rewire, what qualifications can I expect them to have? Would someone only get public liability insurance as an electrician if they had these qualifications?

Also, how about for the person who was testing their work, what qualifications can I expect them to have? And should they have public liability in place to do this part?

What should they present me with at the end to show what they have done, that is has been tested and is fine?

Thank you very much!

 

[Risteard]

Hia, if someone is doing a full rewire, what qualifications can I expect them to have?

NVQ Level 3. Check their JIB Grade Card.

 

[EFLImpudence]

 

[ericmark]

There are many routes to become an electrician. This is why there is no paper qualification required to become an electrician. However to work on domestic they or at least their company really needs to be a scheme member, without being a member of a scheme they can't self certify the work. With commercial the required qualifications only really show they can work on sites without being injured or killed mainly by industrial processes not by electricity.

But there is nothing stopping a company employing me to do electrical work without ever seeing my qualifications, all they need to do is look on the electro role to see that I am British and am allowed to work in this country, or see my passport. At my age I could have done an apprenticeship without ever going to collage and so could in theroy be a really good electrician without holding anything other than my apprenticeship deeds.

In real terms I would likely have returned to collage to show I can read a book, the C&G2382 shows I could extract information from the regulations book quick enough to pass a test. This means I must remember some of the book as there is not enough time to look up every question. In order to inspect and test except in Scotland I don't need any qualifications, although C&G2391 or C&G2392 is considered as the qualification required to show you know how to inspect and test a fixed installation. In Scotland you have to show resent learning I think, but only in Scotland is that true. For the appliance the C&G2377 is split into two exams one for the testing and one for the management of the paperwork, the problem is it is inspection and testing even if of in service electrical equipment so a simple question of "Have you got your inspection and testing" could correctly be answered yes with either C&G2391 or C&G2377 the former is quite hard to pass, the latter is quite easy, all the City & Guilds exams listed are all considered level 3 even when all it means is you can read a book.

The C&G exams have changed through the years, so those electricians who started years ago will have never taken a NVQ as they simply did not exist. And although the NVQ was intended to be a hands on course of education in real terms I have met many who are good passing tests, but useless doing their job. I have never needed personal insurance, but my son has, and he did not need to show his qualifications. In theroy inspection and testing is a professional option, so should require Professional Indemnity Insurance, but often the Public liberty Insurance has a clause, which covers the electricians inspection and testing.

So as a commercial employer you need to ask previous employers just like with any other trade, with domestic you need to select some one who is a scheme member. As one rises in the profession, you can gain qualifications which reflect the job you are doing. I needed a level 5 qualification and a recommendation to become a member of the IET, I am sure there other ways in? if I was interested as I get positions of responsibility I can request the IET to recognise this, and I would gain letters behind my name to show how well I had done. I have never bothered, mainly as it costs more the higher you raise though the ranks.

Odd as it may seem my degree did not teach me how to do house wiring or any part of the regulations. So an electrical engineer could have no idea on how to wire a house. Fact I did my degree after becoming an electrician yes I do, but I could have specialised in say machine control programming PLC's etc, and have no idea how to wire a house. Yet I could have gained a whole string of letters behind or even in front of my name.

We are still members of the EU so Polish and German electricians can work in this country, it would be expected that they take the C&G2382 to show they know our regulations, but a company could employ them and use one guy with his C&G2391 to test and inspect may jobs being done by even electricians mates or apprentices. Who could have only just started. So as a domestic user, your only way to be sure they have some level of control is to use scheme members. In spite of having 2382, 2391, and 2377 and a degree in electrical engineering I don't have an NVQ of any level, they did not exist when I did my apprenticeship. And since mainly commercial I have never had a JIB card, however I have met electricians mates with a full JIB card, hard to get now, but when JIB started they issued cards like confetti so yes shows some thing with 25 years old, but for a 60 year old it means nothing.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Whereabouts in the UK are you?

Generally, any work that is a new circuit, or fitting a consumer unit, is notifiable work. To do the work, the electrician must be a member of one of the Competent Person schemes (CPS). The schemes have entry levels of qualification/ competence and are assessed annually. Having the relavent insurances is a condition of membership. Details and links at http://www.labc.co.uk/advice-building-projects/homeowners/electrical-work

Once the work is done the CPS member notifies that the work has been completed to the local authority and you will get a Certificate of Completion. (this can vary in some parts of the less than United Kingdom).
You should also receive an Electrical Installation Certificate from the electrician doing the work. This details the characteristics of each circuit, and confirms that the whole thing complies with the relavent standards (usually BS7671).

More details about the legal requirements in the WIKI at //www.diynot.com/wiki/Electricsart-P

So you'll need a qualified, competent electrician. Personal recommendation is usually the best way of finding one of those.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I have never had a JIB card, however I have met electricians mates with a full JIB card, hard to get now, but when JIB started they issued cards like confetti so yes shows some thing with 25 years old, but for a 60 year old it means nothing.

NVQ Level 3. Check their JIB Grade Card.

I too have been a fully qualified, registered electrician for more than 20 years and I have neither had or needed an NVQ level 3 or a JIB Card.

 

[flameport]

Hia, if someone is doing a full rewire, what qualifications can I expect them to have?

Depends on your expectations.
The presence or lack of qualifications means very little in terms of the quality of work you will get.
You could get someone with every qualification available, but who obtained those by attending some overpriced intensive set of courses for a month or two, and has never done a single day of practical work in their life.
Or someone who has been installing electrical systems for 40 years yet has no pieces of paper to prove anything.
Or some other combination of those things.

The NVQ3 is an evidence based effort which is supposed to prove that an individual has completed various practical installations over a period of months or years.
A JIB card is a piece of plastic which states that the holder has the NVQ3 and probably other things. It's required for working on construction sites.

Would someone only get public liability insurance as an electrician if they had these qualifications?

No, insurers do not ask for, require or care about qualifications of any kind.
The only criteria for obtaining PLI is that you pay for it.

What should they present me with at the end to show what they have done, that is has been tested and is fine?

An installation certificate with details of the installation including test results for each circuit.

 

[Doggit]

As it more than likely that you wouldn't be able to recognise any of the relevant qualifications, it might be best to ask around for recommendations instead.

 

[securespark]

I have never had a JIB card, however I have met electricians mates with a full JIB card, hard to get now, but when JIB started they issued cards like confetti so yes shows some thing with 25 years old, but for a 60 year old it means nothing.

NVQ Level 3. Check their JIB Grade Card.

I too have been a fully qualified, registered electrician for more than 20 years and I have neither had or needed an NVQ level 3 or a JIB Card.

Me too. Are we all charlatans?

 

[ericmark]

Well it does not matter any more, officially retired. I remember my dad was up in arms when I got an apprenticeship, it was just 4 years, he said how could I be expected to learn a trade in just 4 years, in his day it was 5 years apprenticeship followed by 2 years journeyman, so 7 years in total. How could you do all that in just 4 years.

Today not even 4 years, OK in college they do cram it in, 6 months collage and 6 months work over 2 years is cramming it in. But still no experience to speak of. My son decided he would enrol for a collage course, as his time with me and others we took short cuts, he wanted to see the "Proper" way to do things. He already had the 2381, 2382, 2391, and 2377 and had wired many houses so was not a beginner.

So it came to bending tray, he was looking forward to doing it the "proper" way using the rollers, he had said to me, if I do get on a "proper" job I want to know how to do it the "proper" way. However it seems the collage did not have rollers, they cut bits the same as I did, he was fuming, it was "I have spend good money to learn how to do this properly, not to muddle through I can already do that." They gave him his money back and he enrolled on a HND instead so he like me now has level 5 qualifications. But it seems every other trade is the same, on the building of Sizewell power station I remember seeing a clutch of apprentices looking at tray work. The guy was showing them the electrical tray work with the comment that's how it should be done, then turning to the pipe fitters tray work and saying if you do it like that you will be collecting your cards. Being fair the GEC pipe fitters were very good, grinding a 36" pipe so when craned into position it fitted first time takes some skill. I think the tray work was likely put in by a instrument guy. It was very bad.

But industrial electricians, commercial electricians, maintenance electricians, and domestic electricians all learn different skills, the collage course tries to cover them all, and they do give the apprentice a taste of the other side of the fence, and things change fast, I worked with PLC's and drives, and the odd HMI, but my son has SCARDA on nearly every machine and Cisco systems is a must for the maintenance engineer of today. I only touched Cisco systems and SCARDA and I am sure today I would have a hard time with firms which are up to date with technology. Even in the domestic the central heating systems using central control panels to individually set the temperature in every room are using IT skills which were not even thought about when I did my apprenticeship. However in the main domestic is still a lot of house bashing and does not really require skills like writing PLC programs and motor control. OK they do have to know the regulations where in the main maintenance electricians rarely need to know. But really there is no need for level 5 qualifications to rewire a house.

 

[securespark]

Well it does not matter any more, officially retired.

Ditto!

 

[bhm1712]

"But there is nothing stopping a company employing me to do electrical work without ever seeing my qualifications, all they need to do is look on the electro role to see that I am British and am allowed to work in this country, or see my passport. At my age I could have done an apprenticeship without ever going to collage and so could in theroy be a really good electrician without holding anything other than my apprenticeship deeds."

That's not very true....to work on electrical equipment you or your employer must be able to show that you are competent and trained. If not, then if anything went wrong you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court in front of the HSE. I'm in industrial/commercial and have been since I was 16 and every single job I've applied for and got has required me to show my electrical and electrical engineering qualifications.

 

[ericmark]

Until around 1996 I only had written qualifications as an auto electrician. My apprenticeship deeds were worded so open you could not really work out from them what I was trained to do, it just stated it was an engineering apprenticeship. I was in around 1996 accepted under the national joint scheme and was entered on their data base as an advanced electrician, similar system to the JIB, but for industrial rather than domestic. Before that point only way a firm could find out what I was like was to contact previous employers. When BS7671:2001 came out I did a set of three exams I felt it was wise to have some bits of paper. It seems after taking the C&G2382 after BS7671:2008 came out that before 2001 many collages set their own test papers for the 16th Edition, and many who enrolled on the update course found they were not able to do the update as their previous qualifications were not held on the C&G data base, but were issued by a training establishment. Non of my qualifications have a photo, and with early certificates it was very easy to alter if you were so inclined. It did say electrician on my passport, but you say what your trade is no one checks it. The only qualification anyone seems to worry about is C&G2382 also called the 17th Edition, this tests your ability to read, you are allowed the book in the exam. In fact new entrants into the trade will likely get a better score than the old guys, as it is easy for the older guy to miss some change, and answer the question as it was, than a new guy who never knew the old regulations to start with.

So anyone working for a firm before 2000 could very well have never taken the updates, and have no written qualifications other than apprenticeship deeds. And even they often don't say exactly what you trained as. Some of the old qualifications can be very misleading. I was trained to use a cherry picker when on the build of the Seven Bridge (new one) and when asked if I had a licence said yes, it was all hand written into the last page of the instruction book, however this was replaced with a system using a card with an expiry date and experience record, but I was unaware my old licence was no longer valid. Be it fork lift, or any other items the rules over the years have changed. But up to date, there is no universal qualification to show you are an electrician. We can still employ electricians from other countries, and yes it does cause some problems when German electricians wire UK plants to German regulations. But it is not illegal and will not be illegal while we as still members of the EU. It may change when we leave, other countries around the world do require electricians to take their exams. But as yet that is not required here. An Australian electrician can work in UK but a UK electrician can't work in Australia.

I have worked as an electrician in Algeria, Falklands, and Hong Kong and for some reason the fact I had worked abroad seemed to make employers think I was good. However there were some real chancers who worked abroad the main qualification seemed to be to have worked abroad before.