Which consumer unit to buy?
- Thread starter dizz
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You will, of course, do what you want to do but without getting into detail you always get what you pay for.
I'm glad your electrician is NAPIT registered but his prices look suicidally cheap - it'll cost him a fiver just to notify the job to NAPIT and that's not charging for his time to do so. If he wants to price like that good luck to him because either he has a second income or he wont stay in business long.
Any electrician should be able to get good discount and should pass some of that onto you. Some he should keep to cover his costs in getting it and all the other costs of running his business - like the £500 a year to belong to NAPIT. Those that you see in Screwfix are there for convenience or through ignorance. Screwfix prices are far more expensive than most wholesalers - RCBO's at £28 against £19 at my wholesalers and that's their public retail price. Yes, like anyone they have loss leaders which can be good value, but are usually ends of ranges bought in bulk.
Be happy but also beware!
I'm glad your electrician is NAPIT registered but his prices look suicidally cheap - it'll cost him a fiver just to notify the job to NAPIT and that's not charging for his time to do so. If he wants to price like that good luck to him because either he has a second income or he wont stay in business long.
Any electrician should be able to get good discount and should pass some of that onto you. Some he should keep to cover his costs in getting it and all the other costs of running his business - like the £500 a year to belong to NAPIT. Those that you see in Screwfix are there for convenience or through ignorance. Screwfix prices are far more expensive than most wholesalers - RCBO's at £28 against £19 at my wholesalers and that's their public retail price. Yes, like anyone they have loss leaders which can be good value, but are usually ends of ranges bought in bulk.
Be happy but also beware!
Try this one, for a job where you know you can buy the thing to be fitted for £100.
Person A quotes you £300 for the thing and £100 labour.
Person B quotes you £150 for the thing and £250 labour.
You ask each of them to re-quote based on you supplying the thing.
Person A says "No, not interested, take it or leave it"
Person B (who unbeknown to you has a stock of things he bought at a bankruptcy auction at £50 each) says "OK, NP, I'll fit it for you for £350".
No other quotes from other people are available, you have to choose A or B.
Which one do you choose, and why?
G
Goldberg
Lemon curry?
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Job just finished. Circa 5 hours. PIR with various numbers and readings on it. Installation certificate issued. I seem to have two separate PIR looking forms and two separate Installation Certificate looking forms. Invoice written out. Cash paid over.
BAS - why the hell are coming back with some highly theoretical materials versus labour scenario - and asking people to select which tradesman to choose. It is a bit ridiculous.
Perhaps it suits the sparky to do the jobs where he is paid immediately in cash (no risk of bad debt), he doesn't have to worry about materials (e.g. because of his own credit limits, fears of client not paying, not correctly identifying the parts required for the job, etc, etc.). In economic terms it comes down to marginal cost. The sparky's marginal cost for pitching up and doing a job like this was the cost of his petrol, his lunch, and the cost of the NAPIT Form - lets' call it a tenner. Now if he wasn't working today - i.e. he had no other jobs, his costs for today would be a tenner less but his income would also be £130 less for not doing my job. In profit terms, he's made a profit of £120 for five hours work. But his assessment of future profit might be much greater. For example, if he identified he was doing work for a landlord, which he would have done, he might see 5 hours a month coming his way, from just pitching in at the right level to win this account. The corrollary to this, of course, is that the other guys that failed to win this business are much less likely to win future business from me, and today they are all £120 worse off.
BAS - why the hell are coming back with some highly theoretical materials versus labour scenario - and asking people to select which tradesman to choose. It is a bit ridiculous.
Perhaps it suits the sparky to do the jobs where he is paid immediately in cash (no risk of bad debt), he doesn't have to worry about materials (e.g. because of his own credit limits, fears of client not paying, not correctly identifying the parts required for the job, etc, etc.). In economic terms it comes down to marginal cost. The sparky's marginal cost for pitching up and doing a job like this was the cost of his petrol, his lunch, and the cost of the NAPIT Form - lets' call it a tenner. Now if he wasn't working today - i.e. he had no other jobs, his costs for today would be a tenner less but his income would also be £130 less for not doing my job. In profit terms, he's made a profit of £120 for five hours work. But his assessment of future profit might be much greater. For example, if he identified he was doing work for a landlord, which he would have done, he might see 5 hours a month coming his way, from just pitching in at the right level to win this account. The corrollary to this, of course, is that the other guys that failed to win this business are much less likely to win future business from me, and today they are all £120 worse off.
Nevertheless it's not too hard for you to answer, is it?
Actually - I'm sure you know exactly "why the hell...", which is why you won't answer it.
Do you get many people wanting to work for you after their first experience?
Maybe they were assessing the future profit from not winning future business from you. Is the name of the £130-guy's business Pyrrhic Electrics, I wonder?
BAS - I haven't answered because it's theoretical and nothing to do with the point at hand.
But to satisfy you, for your made up theoretical scenario - you know, the one where A won't provide just labour, and B you haven't even specified whether he will just do labour or not), clearly I choose B - he can supply the part and labour.
Now read my post and tell me whether it's more realistic.
Have a great weekend, I am off for a pint.
But to satisfy you, for your made up theoretical scenario - you know, the one where A won't provide just labour, and B you haven't even specified whether he will just do labour or not), clearly I choose B - he can supply the part and labour.
Now read my post and tell me whether it's more realistic.
Have a great weekend, I am off for a pint.
It's an example, and everything to do with the point at hand.
So can A:
But if you choose B you'll be paying over the odds for the part. You can buy it for £100, he wants £150.
I did, and I don't believe it is.
But you clearly do, and your approach has got you someone who will undoubtedly do a first-rate job of doing a PIR, a full test on all of the circuits, an installation of a new CU, the issue of an EIC and notification to LABC for £130, so why worry?
I'm sure we'd all be interested to see the PIR and EIC, with schedules, if you could scan and post them...
Nice pint - now back
BAS - what's his marginal cost?
In economics and business that's how it works - that's why I can buy a brand new Glowworm A rated combi off the internet for as cheap as any gas safe registered engineer, and then just a gas safe engineer to fit it.
Gone are the days when your Person B can buy at trade and sell at retail. These "parts" are called commodities - doesn't matter who buys them, they are the same. It does however matter who fits them - that's what the register is about - surely you are not doubting the abilities and quality of the person I have used, just because he understands marginal cost are you? He is after all one of you - registered with NAPIT.
For all you know, he is the best engineer in town - perhaps he had a tax bill that was due next week, and he knew, with cash, this would help him a lot? Perhaps he likes to keep busy and would rather work 40 hours a week charing £130 for 5 hours work rather than 20 hours a week charing £260 - your motives are your momotives his is his. be very careful doubting his work.
Moreover, I might still buy the "part" rather than use Person B, because I wish to generate a trade account, so I can personally extend the ring main in an extension I am planning, or replace sockets in the kitchen, replace the light switch in the bathroom, replace the damaged 2.5mm cable in the kitchen, add a spur in the bedroom, or, in fact, re-wire the whole house and get building control to sign off my work for £130. You are making a lot of assumptions about the contractor I have used and my motives for buying the part myself.
<But you clearly do, and your approach has got you someone who will undoubtedly do a first-rate job of doing a PIR, a full test on all of the circuits, an installation of a new CU, the issue of an EIC and notification to LABC for £130, so why worry? >
BAS - that is ****** - he is NAPIT registered - it is not my job to check his work.
BAS - what's his marginal cost?
In economics and business that's how it works - that's why I can buy a brand new Glowworm A rated combi off the internet for as cheap as any gas safe registered engineer, and then just a gas safe engineer to fit it.
Gone are the days when your Person B can buy at trade and sell at retail. These "parts" are called commodities - doesn't matter who buys them, they are the same. It does however matter who fits them - that's what the register is about - surely you are not doubting the abilities and quality of the person I have used, just because he understands marginal cost are you? He is after all one of you - registered with NAPIT.
For all you know, he is the best engineer in town - perhaps he had a tax bill that was due next week, and he knew, with cash, this would help him a lot? Perhaps he likes to keep busy and would rather work 40 hours a week charing £130 for 5 hours work rather than 20 hours a week charing £260 - your motives are your momotives his is his. be very careful doubting his work.
Moreover, I might still buy the "part" rather than use Person B, because I wish to generate a trade account, so I can personally extend the ring main in an extension I am planning, or replace sockets in the kitchen, replace the light switch in the bathroom, replace the damaged 2.5mm cable in the kitchen, add a spur in the bedroom, or, in fact, re-wire the whole house and get building control to sign off my work for £130. You are making a lot of assumptions about the contractor I have used and my motives for buying the part myself.
<But you clearly do, and your approach has got you someone who will undoubtedly do a first-rate job of doing a PIR, a full test on all of the circuits, an installation of a new CU, the issue of an EIC and notification to LABC for £130, so why worry? >
BAS - that is ****** - he is NAPIT registered - it is not my job to check his work.
I have no idea, and I care even less.
Indeed you can, but you cannot sustainably end up with a lower total cost and maintain quality.
No, I am doubting his abilities and quality because he is not charging an amount which is consistent with quality work done by an able person.
You are mistaken about me.
All of that may be true, but it is not sustainable for the very reasons I have illustrated in my "theoretical" examples. In the long run all such people will end up earning what they need to earn, no other model can possibly work, and so in the long run any denial of margin on materials will have to be added to labour charges, so unless you can buy cheaper than him it is impossible for you to be better off. All you can hope is that if you buy as cheaply you will break even.
You have made your motives abundantly clear, and whilst there is not a perfect relationship between what you pay and what you get, there is a reasonable one, and your approach is one which tends towards you getting a carp CU and a carp job done of installing it. Neither outcome is guaranteed, but what is guaranteed is that if you go through life acting like this you will end up with more carp than average, for you are the natural prey John Ruskin was thinking of.
Unfortunately being registered with NAPIT or any other body is no longer any guarantee of even basic competence, let alone a reasonable degree of craftsmanship.
As I said, it's not guaranteed that this guy will do a carp job, but I wouldn't bet against it and I don't think anybody else here would either.
G
Goldberg
This term, with which you seem so obsessed, does not represent the full picture.
Firstly, in the example of £10 being the "marginal cost", this isn't even accurate, because if the guy didn't work he would still have to eat lunch. A small point, but indicative of your biased and blinkered outlook.
You could not be more wrong. Since you're not a tradesperson, it's not surprising that you don't know, but that doesn't explain why you're pretending to know.
No they're not. Nobody in their right mind calls them that.
Yes, but it matters who supplies them. Under existing consumer legislation, if the contractor supplies the "commodities" then he is duty bound to provide a warranty for them.
Very little care is needed to know with absolute certainty that the amount he charged you cannot sustain that kind of business with the right amount of training and the overheads that the business must have.
Perhaps not, but it's your personal safety that you're using as the ante when gambling that he's any good.
Flippin eck - this is painful 
And must be some kind of record, too - I don't think I've ever seen the BAS-assault go on after the job is done and dusted before! And done by a fully registered spark with all neccesary paperwork in order. A BAS-Goldberg tag-team effort too - wow!
I mean sure - if a poster lets it slip they might dare attempt some work themselves without being able to demonstrate an encyclopedic knowledge of building/wiring regs, then business as usual - bludgeon them to death with the onslaught of smug superiority, utterly unhelpful inquisition and personal insults until they apologise, type "Yes, I am an incompetent fool" and click the competent person link. That's fair enough
But this guy did engage a full-scope registered spark who provided all the paperwork. Was always going to. But sorry, Dizz - that's just not bloody good enough!! In future you need to go for the most expensive quote to increase the likelyhood of getting not just a spark but a craftsman. In fact, spit on whoever gives you the cheapest quote and tell them they are not good enough to install a light in your dog-house. And woe betide you if you consider supplying any materials yourself. Well at least you know now for next time, eh?
Seriously though, Dizz, glad you managed to get the work done to your satisfaction and that some people on here may have helped towards that. Never mind BAS - he's part of the entertainment. Wouldn't be the same without him. But do take the initiative yourself to just ignore the tirade and let it rest, because the BAS-minator absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead
Welcome to DIYnot. Oh and one other thing - do post a piccy of the new CU and the test results - go on. Might temporarily shut some people up if all looks good, but then again, if it doesn't... Should be interesting either way!
Liam
And must be some kind of record, too - I don't think I've ever seen the BAS-assault go on after the job is done and dusted before! And done by a fully registered spark with all neccesary paperwork in order. A BAS-Goldberg tag-team effort too - wow!I mean sure - if a poster lets it slip they might dare attempt some work themselves without being able to demonstrate an encyclopedic knowledge of building/wiring regs, then business as usual - bludgeon them to death with the onslaught of smug superiority, utterly unhelpful inquisition and personal insults until they apologise, type "Yes, I am an incompetent fool" and click the competent person link. That's fair enough
But this guy did engage a full-scope registered spark who provided all the paperwork. Was always going to. But sorry, Dizz - that's just not bloody good enough!! In future you need to go for the most expensive quote to increase the likelyhood of getting not just a spark but a craftsman. In fact, spit on whoever gives you the cheapest quote and tell them they are not good enough to install a light in your dog-house. And woe betide you if you consider supplying any materials yourself. Well at least you know now for next time, eh?
Seriously though, Dizz, glad you managed to get the work done to your satisfaction and that some people on here may have helped towards that. Never mind BAS - he's part of the entertainment. Wouldn't be the same without him. But do take the initiative yourself to just ignore the tirade and let it rest, because the BAS-minator absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead
Welcome to DIYnot. Oh and one other thing - do post a piccy of the new CU and the test results - go on
. Might temporarily shut some people up if all looks good, but then again, if it doesn't... Should be interesting either way!Liam
G
Goldberg
What exactly has he done well?
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