Why is Land-Rover still such an unreliable marque ?

[mointainwalker]

I understand that unreliability can continue through a marque because it is using an engine that was introduced 30 years ago: I (half ) understand that some very expensive moulded plug/switch components are used for decades even though they are shown to be defective, but I am surprised about this .

Why is Land-Rover still a consistent challenger for last place in reliability surveys ?

Obviously for many decades L-R was starved of development, but when BMW bought it in 1994 that would have been less the case and it would have been exposed to all kinds of modern engineering development techniques? Following this there has -I believe - been continued heavy investment by Tata.

Cutting things short, how is it possible after three decades or so of major investment and exposure to modern engineering development, as well as new engines etc that should have eliminated historical problems, that L-R cars are consistently in the bottom 10% ( 5% ? ) of user surveys/ warranty company surveys ?

Are the workers incompetent ? Is the design poor ? Have the suppliers been poorly selected by incompetent buyers and QA ?

I was in the middle of this as as a representative of an o.e. component supplier ( as well as to German / French manufacturers ) but I have no answer. Do any of you out there have anything to say?

 

[sxturbo]

The reason is they still don't have the investment required.

Don't get me wrong TATA have invested lots, but they still spend much less on R&D than other manufacturers.

It's a bit like rover of old, they do wonders for the budget they have, but they have to cut corners somewhere and usually it is within the electronic. The same with the engine range it's amazing for what it cost but built to a budget.

It's also not helped both them and Jag are losing money hand over fist.

They would have been better off joining with another firm to share development

 

[dontbelieveawordofit]

always struggled to get my xf booked in to stratstone for warranty work as all their ‘technicians’ were in next door repairing land and range rovers.
Not got too much bad to say about our jaguar if i’m honest. couple of niggles but nothing to justify not recommending one.

 

[Mottie]

We’ve had our Evoque 5 years now. Apart from one electrical glitch that was fixed under warranty just after we bought it and a door lock earlier this year, it’s been trouble free. Regularly serviced and maintained though - there’s plenty that buy 'prestige' vehicles and then baulk at a £400-£500 service so things get missed. I understand that the later Euro 6 diesel engined models are nothing but aggro for many though.

 

[Avocet]

It's an interesting question - and one that I have no answer to, but a personal stake in. Back in 2009, Mrs. Avocet was in the market for a small, 2nd hand 4x4. Freelander 1, RAV 4, Nissan X-Trail, Honda CR-V - were all on the short list. Freelander 1 was ruled out first, partly because of the side-hinged rear door that was a pain with a trailer on, but mainly because of their appalling reliability reputation. RAV-4 was ruled out for the same rear door issue and having no space inside. CR-V was (reputedly) pants off road. That left the T30 X-Trail. Japanese designed and built, chain-driven cams, credible off-road performance (for what they are), good space inside.

Well, let's just say that it well and truly myth-busted Japanese build quality and reliability for us! On the plus side, it was electrically almost perfect. The only electrical problem it ever had, was when some of the wires to the tailgate fatigued because Nissan hadn't left enough slack in the loom. When it ended its life at 13 years old, it was even on its original battery! However, the rest of it was an absolute crock of the proverbial brown stuff! Brake calipers were practically a service item. Front wishbone bushes, anti roll bar bushes (and drop links); quite a few other bits and pieces, but the real killer was the bloody timing chain (and indeed, the horrible bit of "bike chain" that goes from one cam to the brake servo vacuum pump. It got through three of those by 130,000 miles)! The timing chain (chains, actually, it had two of them) were also a nightmare of a job. Not just the hassle of access, but the stupidity f the design that mean so many things had to come off in order to change the belt. Lots of bits of what I'd call "design arrogance" that had quite obviously been designed with no thought to replacement because they'd never fail... supposedly...). AND I'd had to do a bit of welding on it...

So what does this have to do with Freelanders? Well, the X-Trail was written-off in an accident in February 2019. As a stop-gap, my sister was getting rid of her Freelander 1. She was going to scrap it but gave it to us instead. Compared to the X-Trail, it had been horrendously neglected. She and her husband are poor as church mice and not mechanically minded, so they skimped on servicing and maintenance. It's a 2001 car (compared to the X-Trail's late 2005) and it had 140,000 miles on it compared to the X-Trail's 130,000.

And here's the thing... The Freelander is a BLOODY GOOD CAR! For something so old, with so many miles on it, and so badly neglected, it was more refined than the X-Trail, less thirsty (but not as quick), rode better, it was just a nicer place to be! All-original suspension (OK, it needed a wheel bearing) and brakes (apart from linings, of course). Basically, there's a really nice car under there, trying to get out! So, why the awful reputation? Well for a start, I was wearing the headlining like a cape. The glue had failed. I mean, for pity's sake! Are there ANY manufacturers these days who haven't mastered headlinings? The scrapyards are FULL of cars of all brands, that have reached the end of their working lives with perfect headlinings! Central locking motors. Have replaced two so far. They're an integral part of the lock, so the whole assembly needs to be replaced. Electric window lifts - I've done three out of the 5 on the car so far. (yes, it has an electrically lowering tailgate glass for some reason)! Water leaks - ell, I've given up trying to find them. It leaks like a sieve - as do most Freelanders. I have one what most owners do, and drilled a hole in the bottom of the boot floor....

And that's the thing. These are all stupid, piddly little things that really **** customers off, and which the rest of the car industry seems to have managed to get on top of. The basic design is actually really bomb-proof! (OK, I know it's a BMW engine). The only thing I've done to the engine, apart from oil changes, has been the thermostat and a couple of induction hoses. It doesn't burn a drop of oil either, even now at 160,000 miles. The gearbox is still as sweet as anything (although I have rebuilt the transfer box). For some reason, we British, can't do detail design to save our lives! Some brilliant concept designs, yes, but we don't have that German / Japanese obsession with minute detail and quality. Landrover (and their dealer network) seem to be too willing to shrug their shoulders and say "oh, they all do that, sir", where (Trails excepted!) someone in Japan would have committed hari-kari over a water leak, or someone in Germany would have faced a firing squad.

As someone who works in the British car industry (what's left of it!) I find it maddeningly frustrating. We CAN do this, we just need to put our minds to it.

(And OK, I realise that we're really talking about newer offerings here, rather than old ones, but that's my experience anyway)!

 

[Burnerman]

Lady next door has a Freelander 2, 13 plate, 60k.
She doesn’t dare let it go out of warranty.....EGR failure -fair enough, discs and pads likewise.
New transfer box, rear diff and Haldex ....now those are serious failures!
John

 

[Mottie]

Brother in Law bought a Freelander 1 diesel with 175k on the clock. Run like a dream and was still running sweet when he sold it 2 years later with 222k on the clock.

 

[Avocet]

And the Freelander 2 is supposed to be a better car! I know other people with more upmarket LR products (Range Rovers) and they all say the same thing - NEVER own a Landrover that isn't under warranty. In a way, I can understand it with the more complex models, with their fancy air suspension and so much else to go wrong, but the Freelander is a relatively simple beast.

 

[EddieM]

IIRC older freelancers had very poor NCAP ratings too.

 

[Munroast]

On changing our car earlier this year, an Evoque was one of the vehicles we looked at, I brought up the reliability issue with the salesman and mentioned a friends Evoque that needed a new crankshaft (big ends went) the slaesmans comment was the Land Rover didn't make the bearings ! I was utterly lost for words at that response.

Anyway, we didn't want it, horrible cramped little cabin and only managed 31 mpg on its test drive.

 

[EddieM]

I had a Landcruiser many years ago. Supposed to be bomb proof like a Hi Lux (think of top gears attempts to kill one) It was very unreliable.

 

[sxturbo]

The xtrail diesel was actually a Renault 2.2 DCI engine.

The petrol QR engines had poor design of timing chain, nissan did produce an updated chain for the smaller engine in the range (1.5 engines) as they were the worst hit, likely because they sold the most of those. They also weren't very economical along with under powered, a poor range of engine by all accounts.

The xtrail along with the N16 Almera were the first cars produced under the influence of Renault, although the xtrail was designed and built by Nissan it was overseen by Renault whom required nissan to drastically cut costs at the time as they were in a poor state financially.

Another option on what was discussed should have been a Suzuki grand Vitara, the diesel was a 2.0 hdi engine which is renowned for its reliability, the Suzuki running gear at the time was also very hard wearing and was over engineered. (Might have been slightly smaller than the xtrail though)

 

[Mottie]

And the Freelander 2 is supposed to be a better car! I know other people with more upmarket LR products (Range Rovers) and they all say the same thing - NEVER own a Landrover that isn't under warranty. In a way, I can understand it with the more complex models, with their fancy air suspension and so much else to go wrong, but the Freelander is a relatively simple beast.

We had a Freelander 2 before our Evoque. Its basically a Freelander 2 in a fancy dress!

 

[Burnerman]

Thankfully I don’t have anything to do with this motor, but it was me who diagnosed the lack of Haldex.
Curiously enough I thought the Haldex only concerned itself with engaging 4wd as required.
I was wrong.....with no Haldex the torque steer is quite remarkable, which surprised me for such a large vehicle.
John

 

[sxturbo]

I had a Landcruiser many years ago. Supposed to be bomb proof like a Hi Lux (think of top gears attempts to kill one) It was very unreliable.

Jeremy Clarkson said the same thing. He had one

Odd though the Aussies live them for their reliability, and they do put some miles on them..