Why my WAU overheated ....

[Mikefromlondon]

This is an Ex Council property, in other words I bought it from its previous owner who purchased it from his local Council, under the right to buy council homes. under Mrs Thatcher's new scheme!

So these are Council build row of houses, and all fixtures and fittings must comply with that council's own building regulations as well as any heating appliances they originally installed, so are you telling me that nearly a dozen or so RGI are incompetent to have issued a safety record for the past 15 years, and that it must have a dedicated return path for the burner.

For your information, yes all the Engineers who worked on this system are fully competent WAU specialist, the only requirement for ventilation is that the premises must have permanent means of adequate vent, that is open to outside to draw fresh air into the hall way. This does not mean it has to be a spiral duct or any other duct as long as the fresh air gets to the hallway from where it is drawn into the cupboard through two vents on the door, so in my view it has always had adequate ventilation and unless it was deliberately blocked by a tenant, that is another issue, and if you have stupid tenants then nothing would stop them blocking a duct or a spiral inlet either if they wanted to.

Although, the rules may have changed since then, no one has ever mentioned that it needs a dedicated air ducting to the burner, but I was considering independently to have one installed to avoid tenants blocking the PV, it isn't difficult to do one if need be, but I think, I will once this tenant moves out and the house is empty, get a new wet system installed once and for all, then my mate can service it as well as he is an RGI but he does not do the WAU or the open gas fires.

Please don't try to assume I break gas safe or other housing rules, the agents I employed won't allow me to do this even if I wanted, most of the times they sent in an engineer of their choice who is always WAU qualified, so it is all nonsense and not a wishful thinking to suggest that these engineers were not WAU specialist.


regardless of ventilation, this is about what made that panel melt! The ventilation is another issue, and is correctly addressed and is more than adequate, as long as it remains open.

I am far more concerned that she might not use this heating and continue to use that portable calor gas, ( because it costs less to heat just the area she is using as opposed to my WAU costs more to heat the whole house!)

which in my view is far more deadly, as it has no flue and all combustible products are discharged internally, and she did whilst that PV was sealed off! I tell you she is some crazy woman and I could get into serious issues with the Coroner! bla bla bla...the occupants were overcome by carbon monoxide due to the negligence of the landlord! I can't wait to evict her now, I will be seeking legal advice and since the lettings agent will no longer deal with me so i am in yet another problem trying to persuade a court that this tenant has been messing about with serious issues! jeopardised my heating system and made it dangerous, for which i am ultimately responsible. ****e!

 

[Gasguru]

Remove the calor gas heater, most users do not have sufficient intelligence to ventillate the property sufficient for their safe use. You may also find the buildings insurance and lease prohibits such heaters.

Why do you not leave a couple of electric heaters at the property to be used if the warm air unit is not functional.

The warm air assessment takes less than an hour....most rgis that posess this category are still clueless about the safety and functional aspects of warm air. I know thousands of properties where the ventillation and flueing is still not up to spec after 40 years of regulations and countless visits by rgis.

Since the units is open flued, install a carbon monoxide alarm, read the instructions, most are fixed in the wrong location. Get one with a 6 or 7 year life.

The return air enters through the top of the unit. There must be a duct (either solid metallic or flexible) from this point to a grill on the outside of the compartment. There will normally be a high and low level grill on the compartment door. From the hallway where the unit is installed there must be a vent to an outside wall and another vent to outside. All the these vents must be the correct size and the dimensions of the grills must also comply with the regs. There are variations of this arrangement but they are rare to find.

More than one minor fault with the ventillation and/or flueing and the unit is considered "At Risk" and should not be used.

I have purposely allowed warm air units to overheat to test the overheat stat. I have never seen them overheat the way your unit has. Are you sure the unit wasn't spilling or perhaps the wiring is incorrect?

Warm air systems can work fine if they are installed properly. Later units from J&S, System E-T and Modairflow maintain a fairly accurate room temperature.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Remove the calor gas heater, most users do not have sufficient intelligence to ventillate the property sufficient for their safe use. You may also find the buildings insurance and lease prohibits such heaters.

Seriously, remove her calor gas, how much i would like to, I bet my luck, the next thing will be the Police around my place for handling stolen property, you really don't know tenants, one accused me of a common assault a long while ago when I complained that she hadn't steam cleaned my carpets and I would therefore deduct no more than 50 quid to hire the machine to do it myself! , as they say once bitten twice shy.

Right now, I am not sure where do i stand with this as lettings agent insure my property through their own bulk insurance scheme, they charge me around 250 quid a year, so not sure what the T&C are.

Why do you not leave a couple of electric heaters at the property to be used if the warm air unit is not functional.

On another thread I had already stated that i left her with 3 fan heaters each up to 2kw in power,with a thermostat control. Until the heating gets restored either the same WAU or a new Wet system.

But she is refusing to use them as it costs too much, so i even agreed to knock 100quid off her rent until the heating gets restored, but she continued using that calor gas much to my annoyance.

The warm air assessment takes less than an hour....most rgis that posess this category are still clueless about the safety and functional aspects of warm air. I know thousands of properties where the ventillation and flueing is still not up to spec after 40 years of regulations and countless visits by rgis.

I don't doubt that, but most I have come across are generally good and competent, and knows their stuff.

Since the units is open flued, install a carbon monoxide alarm, read the instructions, most are fixed in the wrong location. Get one with a 6 or 7 year life.

I installed one about a year and half ago, in 6 weeks it was in pieces and batteries removed for kiddies toys! I had to since provide a 2nd one at my bloody expense with a warning that it could save her life if should things go wrong with the heating!

I have also got two smoke detectors, yesterday only one tested and the other one had no battery!

The guy who did the safety checks yesterday also tested to see if the CO detector functioned ok.

The return air enters through the top of the unit. There must be a duct (either solid metallic or flexible) from this point to a grill on the outside of the compartment. There will normally be a high and low level grill on the compartment door. From the hallway where the unit is installed there must be a vent to an outside wall and another vent to outside. All the these vents must be the correct size and the dimensions of the grills must also comply with the regs. There are variations of this arrangement but they are rare to find.

More than one minor fault with the ventillation and/or flueing and the unit is considered "At Risk" and should not be used.

I think this is the case, the hallway leads to a small utility room which has a door and a PV above it, it is just an opening about 1" wide all the way across, and then the same again but wider on the outside wall, as this one has a mesh to keep insects out. It was this one that was blocked by the tenant.

There is a second door from the hallway to the kitchen, where there is a second but much smaller PV, this one on its own may not be sufficient, so i will probably look into making this into a bigger opening to be on the safe side.

I have purposely allowed warm air units to overheat to test the overheat stat. I have never seen them overheat the way your unit has. Are you sure the unit wasn't spilling or perhaps the wiring is incorrect?

absolutely, it should be part of the safety check, but yesterday I did not want to breath on his shoulders, I gave him his space, allowed him to do what he wanted without me looking over his shoulder! or taking his concentration away, so I am not so sure if he did that overheat test, wanted him to do his own thing and what he did I don't know, but I do remember at one stage I heard a loud click which must be the limit switch going off while the fan continued to run, so I am sure it is doing what it is suppose to do, during this test one of the duct outlet (grill was blocked, at this stage we were not aware of it) so i stood to a side, and simply acted as a silly old landlord pretending to not know anything about heating systems! best thing to do as I couldn't afford to upset him as for me this was far far too crucial that I got this safety record as I was being crucified from all angles!

If there was problem and he failed it, then I would have simply accepted it and would have asked him to remedy the situation at any expense!

Warm air systems can work fine if they are installed properly. Later units from J&S, System E-T and Modairflow maintain a fairly accurate room temperature.

Do they provide individual room temperature or not?

and finally thanks for your input.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

At one stage I thought he was going to fail it when he went into the loft to examine the flue, and said the flue is upside down!

and I asked him how do you mean?

he said the joints between sections are wrong way around, the male part should be up followed by the female part over it and so on!

I nearly fainted! and thought how come its been always like that ans it was build by the council and so they should know better!

But in the end he said as long as there is no leak in the flue joints then he will pass it, I personally think he did not have much choice here nor did I!

You guys can delve on this if you want!


here are two possible configs. one could be wrong and one could be right, but if mine is wrong, then I am not getting it changed as the H&S executives can get their arse down there and change it at their expense, or the council who build this house will have to get it right because they constructed this house!

 

[Gasguru]

NEVER trust a letting agent to vet the tenant, always meet them in person. Avoid any on benefits and housing associations. Don't entertain swapping to card meter/electric keys...it clearly shows hopeless financial budgeting.

Portable heater use is down to the insurance and any building lease NOT the tenant.

Grow some and get tough with the agent...they put this dross in your flat so they can sort it.

Only install alarms with long life sealed batteries, take photos, get them on the inventory. Label all vents and take photos.

All the grills/vents for the warm air system are calculated based on the Kw input of the warm air unit. If the rgi did not take a tape measure or gauge to the vents and calculate their sizes he did not do the job properly.

The installation of the flue joints is dependent on the flue construction. Traditional fibre cement flues have the female socket uppermost. This allows condensation to drain back down the flue and not leak out through the joints. Twin wall metallic flues have the female sockets downwards, sometimes you will also find the orientation arrows which should face upwards.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

I would have probably never found out the truth if I hadn't thought of going upstairs and check if the warm air was pouring out of the room grills or registers, one room was fine and the main bedroom was stuffed! why?

I know it cannot be her, women rarely touch mechanical things, but sure it is her fella, and he needs a good lesson taught now.

 

[Gasop]

How much longer is this wind up thread going to carry on???????

 

[brutaldeluxe1]

How much longer is this wind up thread going to carry on???????

My thoughts exactly
Op sell the gaff and move on

 

[Mikefromlondon]

you don't realise what i had gone through, since May this year! if it was not for the red tape regarding people like me who cannot officially touch any gas appliances, I would have long restored it and none of this horrible drama would have taken place and the tenant would have had her heating restored, but can you not imagine if you went to a site and saw that front panel in the state it was, would you even consider testing it? that is why my regular RGI gave it one look and without even trying to see or discover what went wrong he capped it off! He said he was no longer interested to service or test it!


So my regular competent RGI could not stand to the challenge to find out what caused this failure and to see if he could find the cause and restore my heating! he simply walked away, so this is when my worst nightmare started. I knew it would be very difficult to find anyone who will touch that appliance even with a barge pole!

So you really think this is a wind up! nope, I was until yesterday in a real problem!

 

[gaswizzard]

so are you telling me that nearly a dozen or so RGI are incompetent to have issued a safety record for the past 15 years, and that it must have a dedicated return path for the burner.

Last post on this as I may as well smash my head off a brick wall.

The return air path is ducted back to WAU which connects into TOP of heater , top of heater being where the filter is fitted , if the heater does not have a return path then the unit is at risk simples , maybe check with gas safe.

Without a return air path the compartment 'may' be subjected to negative pressure/vitiation which in turn can cause flame reversal , asd said i've seen a few where the flames have licked the front of unit and caused scorching , GET IT CHECKED.

 

[Gasop]

.

Last post on this as I may as well smash my head off a brick wall.

You may as well

We were all taken in on this one

 

[Mikefromlondon]

so are you telling me that nearly a dozen or so RGI are incompetent to have issued a safety record for the past 15 years, and that it must have a dedicated return path for the burner.

Last post on this as I may as well smash my head off a brick wall.


The return air path is ducted back to WAU which connects into TOP of heater , top of heater being where the filter is fitted , if the heater does not have a return path then the unit is at risk simples , maybe check with gas safe.

Without a return air path the compartment 'may' be subjected to negative pressure/vitiation which in turn can cause flame reversal , asd said i've seen a few where the flames have licked the front of unit and caused scorching , GET IT CHECKED.

Please Don't do that for my heating's Sake! (NO BANGING HEAD!)


I apologise for not clarifying this earlier as well as misunderstanding your question about the dedicated return path, I even wrongly said earlier in one of my posts above that in my opinion there isn't a 3rd separate return path via its own duct, sorry I was wrong because I did not really comprehend your question fully! (I am crap) it took me a while to follow through and then your last post made more sense to me so I am able to confirm yes indeed it has a separate return path dedicated using a solid duct work . Please don't bang your head yet, I might one day need your help, who knows!

It is exactly as you described indeed, the door has two louvered openings, and that just feeds the air to the cupboard where the whole appliance sits, as well as I am guessing it supplies any oxygen to the burner for a safe combustion.

However, the fan draws its air from a 3rd grill or a louvered opening via a duct work, which has an opening with a louvered grill right above the cupboard door, but just below the ceiling level, this is all ducted, I remember the 2nd guy showed me how filthy it was laden with fluff stuck all around the duct work, so he hoovered all the internal ducting and all the way to the 3rd vent which is where it draws all its return fan flow from and then the in coming flow is filtered through a filter tray before it hits the upper sealed chamber, (it is not a 100% sealed chamber as the cover does not have air tight gaskets on it, it never had this, but the gaps are fairly tight, however, if the top louvers were blocked or the filter became excessively trapped with dust, then it can start drawing some air from the cupboard chamber and where flame reversal can take place, you are quite right about that. ( which can be disastrous of course, hence why it would be classified as unsafe , perfectly understandable)

Once the filtered air is drawn into the upper WAU chamber, it is then sucked into the fan from the center and pumped out to the lower chamber right on top of the heat exchanger , where heat is exchanged and the air becomes warmer and is then distributed out via the warm air ducting to the two rooms downstairs and two rooms upstairs.

I can also understand your concerns that if a flame reversal had taken place, the flames would have been shooting out from the burner and the heat escaping would be able to melt that plastic panel, so now, it is making me wonder if that really happened or the stuffing of the ducts caused the panel to melt, you could well be right mate, I will speak to my 3rd guy or the 2nd guy when he comes back from his holidays to check that there were no signs of any flames shooting out that may have left any tell tail signs!

Well done mate for suggesting or explaining this flame reversal theory, one I am taking quite seriously now, and it has certainly made me think again whether this is what caused the melt down rather than the stuffed duct or ducts. (You definitely deserved a big thank you)

I hope that i have now clarified better regarding the return flow path that it is indeed via a solid duct higher above the door. I will also get the RGI to make a revisit in a few days time to double check that if there are any signs of spillage or flame reversal, just to be on the safe side in view of both occupants' safety and property.

You are also rest assured now that I know what this tenant had been up to, so i will be paying her regular visits and keep an eye on her if she regularly cleans the filter tray and make sure she has not blocked any vents again! At least we have got to the bottom of this.

Mike

 

[SimonH2]

I'm afraid part of the problem has been of your own making - particularly not telling your gent that they work for you, and partly for not letting them issue a Section 21 notice.

The fact that you don't know what the insurance policy says is worrying - how do you know that you're not breaching any conditions of it, or letting a tenant so so. It may well have something to say about using portable gas appliances, and even if it doesn't, your tenancy agreement should. If one or the other says the tenant can't use one, then get it stopped NOW. It's a fire risk, it's a CO poisoning risk, and it will cause condensation problems (if it hasn't already) - for every kg of propane burnt, 1.6kg of water is made !
Doesn't matter how much the tenant moans - if the tenancy agreement says they can't use it, they can't use it. If they refuse to stop using it, throw them out.

Similarly with the alarms. After finding the alarms with battery out, you should have written to them making it perfectly clear that this is not allowed. If they repeat - throw them out. Mind you, the alarms should be the type that are mains powered with non-removeable backup battery to avoid such tampering.


I understand a reluctance to throw someone out when you want to give them an opportunity to sort themselves out, but that can go too far. With hindsight I should have thrown the last tenants out of the flat 6 months sooner than I did - for the same reasons, I was trying to be understanding (but they didn't seem to want to learn).


So you have some decisions to make. This tenant has shown themselves to be "poor" at looking after your property. You either carry on and hope they improve, or you throw them out. If you let them stay then you have to accept that they may well do all the same stuff again - and only you will be to blame second time around. By all means try and sit own to discuss the issues with them - if they listen and seem set on improving them you may decide to let them stay. If (like my last tenants) they simply won't listen, then they'll have to go.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Thanks Simon,yes, some of the fault is my own making, if had I taken my agent's advice in March, when she was 3 months behind in rent, and I had given them the go ahead to go through with section 21, I would have been in a different situation. I should have acted tough!

Now that the agent has withdrawn his support, I will now have to deal with her directly, so I will be putting it all in writing, making sure the Tenant signs a copy of acknowledgement of all new and as well as previous tenancy conditions, reiterate all the important conditions that she must comply with in particular to heating , and absolutely no more use of portable gas appliances as this does render my insurance useless.

I will give her a written warning that if I found a presence of a portable gas fire, it will be confiscated, removed from the premises, and taken away for disposal. The appliance was still there today as I called in to wish her a Happy New Year as well as to check the heating is still working fine, it was off, and the house was warm, not sure if she had been using my heating or the calor gas, should really have checked the credit on the gas meter. But I asked her to run it for me to make sure it runs fine, I took some pictures, but she kept saying I need to hurry up as she is expecting some visitors !

So in a great rush I took some pictures to confirm that the system does have a separate 3rd return path to the fan. Will post them up here later. on.

So now on the pretext of collecting rent from her every month, I will make sure the filters are clean, no other vents blocked, and all registers are free and open, apparently the registers do not close fully but do have some restriction when the louvers are at a steep angle, this causes the flow to reduce but not stop altogether.

 

[SimonH2]

Be careful if you try to impose new conditions.

You don't need her to sign anything regarding what's in the tenancy agreement - she's already signed to that. She is entitled to refuse to accept any new conditions you try to impose as that would be a change to the contract.

If you want changes then you'd need to either mutually agree to a change in the tenancy agreement, or start a new one (which in turn means a new minimum 6 month period before you can get her out (in practical terms)). You would also need to re-protect the deposit - there are strict time limits for this, and if you miss the (IIRC) 30 day deadline than you lose a lot of rights - including the use of the Section 21 notice.
Be wary of doing anything that could be construed as "sign this or you're out" or she could claim that's harassment. Similarly, if you intend to do checks every month, then get her to agree to that - or that could also be claimed to be harassment, as you know from experience, there doesn't have to any grounds for her to be a nuisance.

You should probably check, I'm not sure whether you actually have to do a new tenancy. The one in place will name your agent and that has changed - I don't know how that affects things. I think it should be OK to just inform the tenant of the change and where the rent is now payable to.


But at least you won't be paying the agents fees any more