Yale Premium Alarm Hsa6400 Wirefree Alarm Kit

[mdf290]

I asked the question because if the time before jamming detection activates is say 15 minutes a clued up and tooled up intruder knows they can break in and have 15 minutes inside the property before the alarm will sound. It does seem that if they leave within that 15 minutes then the only record on the system will be ...... Yes what would it be. Would it even record the entry bearing in mind that the panel cannot receive anything its sensors are transmitting.

OMG Bernard you are being totally ridiculous now. Where do you get 15 minutes from? If you don't have a clue (and you don't seem to!) you just invent a figure that supports your arguments without any knowledge of the system.

GO AWAY AND RESEARCH THE YALE SYSTEM why even buy one and test it for goodness sake.

I cannot remember the exact algorithm of the top of my head but it is something along the lines of three 10 second transmissions within a 3 minute period. meaning the longest possible period is 30 seconds or just 10 seconds more than most systems entry countdown timer.

Your obsession with trying to establish the fundemental claim that a one way wireless system is not secure is making you look desparate , and for what?

15 minutes!!

Come on Bernard be professional and objective not hysterical and sensationalist.

 

[mdf290]

You have now thrown into the pot the smash grab and run scenario as if it is something a Yale could not deal with when in fact there is not an alarm in the country that could help in a smash grab and run scenario. So why did you even ask that question.

The purpose of the alarm is to report that a break in has occured and then the owner can take urgent action to repair the damage to the home to make it secure (?) again. Silent alarms ( that is ones with out bell boxes ) do just that. Alarms with bells ( sirens ) may deter the intruder from remaining in the property if they consider a response to the bell is likely be it neighbour or police.

It is possible that a smash grab run intruder could be apprended or identified by neighbours if they react to the alarm.

Swanning around a house for 15 minutes is NOT a smash and grab Bernard.

A smash and grab is someone looking in a window seeing something he likes and breaking in to grab that object and flee immediately REGARDLESS OF ANY ALARM.

This method of intrusion would defeat ALL alarms whether Yale , wireless,wired,grade2 , 3 , 4 or zillion because the criminal has taken the calculated risk that he can grab the item and leggit before anyone turns up EVEN IF THE ALARM GOES OFF and even if that alarm is a professional monitored system.

Even if the Police or the keyholders/homeowner make an appearance within 2 minutes they would be TOO LATE to apprehend the criminal.

The truth that also needs to be told here is that a professional monitored system would not elicit a police response in that scenario. If for example a room is entered by a Patio Door which has a sensor , this would set off the alarm. However without a second sensor sending a signal to act as a confirmation that the first signal was not just a false alarm then the monitoring centre CANNOT inform the police.

However with a Yale 6400 telecommunicating alarm the HOMEOWNER will be notified of EVERY alarm!!

Keep trying Bernard but you WILL NOT trip up what is basically a very comprehensive alarm system.

In the ISOLATED cases you could point out where the system would not work properly then yes following indications I would wholeheartedly agree with scrapping the wireless alarm for those particular locations in those particular scenarios and going wired.

I will not however advocate that wireless alarms are not fit for purpose or cannot perform as expected when all my experience shows that they can.

 

[JohnD]

Most of the 20 pages has been trying to make you see that any wireless based alarm system is a compromise ...

Nonsense.

I said on page 1 that

The two big advantages of a DIY wireless system like the Yale is that it is cheap ...and that the householder can easily install it himself in an hour or so...
If those two key advantages are not vital to you, you can buy a more secure system for more money....

However, also on page 1 you said that

You may buy the wireless system and install it and it works fine. Then a neighbour buys the same system and there are two alarms using the same radio channel to communicate from sensors to control panel and/or siren.

Attempting to frighten the potential buyer into thinking that his alarm would then stop working. I then repeatedly attempted to get you to say what you thought the probability was, that an interfering signal would block your sensor, at the same fraction of a second that a burglar broke into your home.

You have now spent 21 pages evading this question, because you know that the probability is vanishingly small. You have obfuscated and tried to hide your embarrassment by bringing in lots of fanciful and extraneous ideas to get away from answering this simple and direct question, which is the only one that matters. I keep trying to bring you back to the core point and you keep evading it.

 

[bernardgreen]

Where do you get 15 minutes from? ~~ you just invent a figure

I asked you for that information.

test it for goodness sake.

I know people who have first hand experience of systems that comply to the same regulations that Yale have to comply with. And as I have said I know of one Yale system which after a series of false ( or jamming related ) activations was scrapped.

The figures for the jamming detection algorithm you provided off the top of your head suggest the following is possible. The entry door is opened by the returning owner during a 10 second period of blocking so the entry countdown timer is not started. When then blocking ends an internal PIR will ( if not already asleep ) send a motion detected signal which the panel, un-aware of the owner returning, will trigger the alarm.

For how many seconds does the entry door sensor send messages to say the door has just opened ? Then how long is it before it sends a routine "I am here" message ? I am aware that message contains information about battery condition but does it also indicate the actual state of the door at that moment of time ? As the alarm can be set with the door open it does seem likely that the routine "I am here with good (or bad) battery" messages do not include the state of the door at that moment of time.

Swanning around a house for 15 minutes is NOT a smash and grab Bernard.

I didn't say it was,

What I said was that if the alarm is disabled by blocking the burglar has a known duration before the alarm will be activated by the jamming detection function. If it doesn't activate ( user has disabled jamming detection ) then the burglar knows he has all the time that the jamming continues. That is the weak point of ALL one way wireless linked alarms. The difference is how the system reacts to being jammed or having been jammed.

Some high reliability systems will attempt to scan all sensors for any activity during the period they were blocked from the panel meaning that during the jamming an intruder will be detected and remembered by the sensors until they can communicate the event(s) to the control panel. That requires two way communication so is not possible in low cost DIY systems.

I have no obession, just a dislike of people who sell systems without providing the end user all of the information that is relevant to proper and expected operation of the system.

 

[JohnD]

I have no obession, just a dislike of people who make misleading statements and will not admit the truth when challenged.

 

[bernardgreen]

However, also on page 1 you said that

You may buy the wireless system and install it and it works fine. Then a neighbour buys the same system and there are two alarms using the same radio channel to communicate from sensors to control panel and/or siren.

OK I will admit to an error in saying "buys the same system" when I should have said "buys equipment that operates on the same radio channel".

I stand by the statement that in the vicinity of 10 compliant systems using 433MHz the 11 th system has to be able to tolerate the channel being occupied continuously as the 10 systems each use the full 10% of time they are allowed to transmit for. I do accept that Yale systems seldom take up the full 10% ( if they did battery life would be very short ).

 

[JohnD]

just catching up with some unanswered questions here

... agree that your expensive pro system will also not protect people who are stupid or careless, and as I accurately and truthfully pointed out, the effects can be even worse?

...estimate the probability that an interfering signal will block a sensor at the same fraction of a second that a burglar breaks into your house, ...

Let's assume, for the purpose of the exercise, that the house is an ordinary domestic house, built in an ordinary street full of other domestic houses, and is not built under the aerial of a BBC transmitter, neither is it built next to an electricity power station.

Alternatively, tell me, how often, in the last year, did you plip the wireless unlocker of your car, when it was parked outside your house, and find that the car did not unlock?

 

[mdf290]

However, also on page 1 you said that

You may buy the wireless system and install it and it works fine. Then a neighbour buys the same system and there are two alarms using the same radio channel to communicate from sensors to control panel and/or siren.

OK I will admit to an error in saying "buys the same system" when I should have said "buys equipment that operates on the same radio channel".

I stand by the statement that in the vicinity of 10 compliant systems using 433MHz the 11 th system has to be able to tolerate the channel being occupied continuously as the 10 systems each use the full 10% of time they are allowed to transmit for. I do accept that Yale systems seldom take up the full 10% ( if they did battery life would be very short ).

They only operate when sensing movement and they will send signals for a number of times before going to sleep. I have actually installed a cluster of 20 yale systems in York in a Park Home site after three burglaries had occured. Incidentally in the intervening two and a half years no more burglaries have occured which proves the deterent effect of the systems. However more importantly noone has repoerted any system problems to me and I have been back six months ago to change all the system batteries and not one report was made of any problems.
No spurious false alarms have occured due to channel occupancy.
The majority of homeowners have wireless phones , doorbells and wireless routers too.

We are also into the area of signal strength are we not in other words the nearest sensors ie the ones in the local system are more likely to block an external system than an external signal is likely to block a local signal... Is that not true?

 

[RF Lighting]

Where's the estate in Leeds you reckon to have fitted 20 systems to? Some people might start to think you're making stuff up just to support your arguments.

 

[alumni]

Where's the estate in Leeds you reckon to have fitted 20 systems to? Some people might start to think you're making stuff up just to support your arguments.

He wouldn't...would he?

Oh, hang on, i seem to recall him getting rumbled a while back regarding his installs. Went from 400 to over a 1000, all in space of a week.

 

[mdf290]

Where's the estate in Leeds you reckon to have fitted 20 systems to? Some people might start to think you're making stuff up just to support your arguments.

New Forest in Middleton go see they are everywhere
Some of my earlier ones have phone numbers on and are square boxes , later ones havecircular sirens just the name on and some dependent on customer preference are std Yale boxes without my logo.

Fill yer boots!

 

[mdf290]

Where's the estate in Leeds you reckon to have fitted 20 systems to? Some people might start to think you're making stuff up just to support your arguments.

He wouldn't...would he?

Oh, hang on, i seem to recall him getting rumbled a while back regarding his installs. Went from 400 to over a 1000, all in space of a week.

er I don't think so....are you just making stuff up like everyone else now? sad.

Or you could visit Mount Pleasant Park Home site in Acaster Malbis near York if you wish..

 

[bernardgreen]

No spurious false alarms have occured due to channel occupancy.

You have proof of that from the system's log of events ?

We are also into the area of signal strength are we not in other words the nearest sensors ie the ones in the local system are more likely to block an external system than an external signal is likely to block a local signal... Is that not true?

Good, you are starting to realise that reliable wireless communication requires more than just sticking off the shelf components in place.

You say the sensors in Mr A's system are more likely to block an external system. How does that affect Mr B whose system is external to Mr A's system.

Signal strength at the receiver is affected by distance to which the inverse square law, (twice the distance means the signal strength is one quarter ) but that is only one of the many factors that affect signal strength. The next thing to consider is the polar diagram of the receiver's aerial and how this affects the field strength required for the receiver to respond. Is the aerial omni-directional or is it more receptive to signals from one particular direction. Bits of metal close to the receiving aerial will alter the polar diagram,

Is the receiver AM or FM or PM ( phase modulation ) ?

AM receivers mix all incoming signals that are in the receiver's pass band while FM and PM tend to lock onto the modulation on the strongest signal. On AM broadacst radio you can hear two stations that on on the same frequency at the same time. The sound your hear is a mixture of both programs often with a whistle or whining sound that is the difference between the two carrier frequencies. On FM you normally hear only one or the other though the receiver may switch from one to the other as the relative signal strengths vary.

 

[JohnD]

I see Bernard's asking questions again.

Does he ever answer them?

 

[bernardgreen]

I see Bernard's asking questions again.

Does he ever answer them?

Yes I do answer them, my answers are professional, devoid of both emotion and marketing influence and based almost entirelly on many years of experience of equipment that uses wireless ommunication. Experience that includes design of new equipment taking into account the restrictions imposed on wireless communication, assessment of what can go wrong when dependent on wireless and diagnosis of what did go wrong when a system failed.

You seem to want answers that satisfy you. Maybe you need them in order to confirm you chose an alarm that is going to be reliable what ever happens in the local area. It would be wrong of me to say it will be reliable.