Anyone here had a BMW X5?

[Donkmeister]

I've currently got a little 2-seater sportscar which I find bags of fun for a blast round country lanes, but absolutely no use for carrying stuff or people.

I'm looking to replace it with something that's easy to get in and out of for those who are elderly or disabled, and has a decent carrying capacity.

I'm not in a hurry to get rid of the MG so I am still at the early stages of looking at stuff on the net.

Due to the elderly/disabled need, the seating height of SUVs seems to offer an advantage I wouldn't get in an estate car. It does mean spending extra on fuel and road-tax, but I think it would definitely be of use to me. My partner has a sportscar so we've agreed that if I get something more sensible I can still have a go on hers when I want

I'm drawn to the BMW X5 because I want decent acceleration plus I like the looks. I have no need for off-road capability, and the Range Rover is well out of my price bracket. I should mention that my budget is £10-£15K, so we're talking fairly aged used cars here!

Used petrol X5s are much cheaper than used diesel ones due to the horrendous fuel consumption, so I'm looking at the 4.4i. Anyone had any negative (or positive) experiences of X5s?

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

X5s do not have a low-transfer box (like the Land Rover models) which limits their off-road ability, but as you say this will not really affect you.

Check Honest John and read the What's Good/Bad link. Also this months Car Mechanics does a diagnostic review on the X5. Good luck, in anycase, DM.

PS: Note these points in the What's Bad:

1. Some early V8s are suffering from porous engine blocks.

2. General Warning about Automatic Transmissions: Many BMWs have "sealed for life" automatic transmissions. Regardless of whether you have a full BMW service history, the dealer will never change the auto fluid. Many of these boxes are failing around the 120-150k mark - often well outside of warranty and to a cost of £3.5k plus VAT. A good independent or automatic transmission specialist can and will change the fluid for you (and any good BMW independents will recommend this anyway). This is commonplace in the US and means the 'box should last the life of the car rather than being the cause of it being written off. General advice is ensure the fluid is flushed out every 60k or more preferably at each Inspection II.

 

[nickso]

v8's dont suffer from porous blocks.

early M60 (4 litre) v8's had nikasil issues along with a lot of other engines and manufacturers did in the early 90's. i'm pretty sure all x5's will have been fitted with M62 (4.4 litre) v8's and they all had alusil linings on the bores and as such will not suffer from fuel sulphur issues.

in any case the high sulphur issues didnt last long anyway and any car currently running a nikasil lined bore will not be affected now so can safely be bought as long as it doesnt run rough on idle and doesnt drink high amounts of oil. most engines, particularly BMW ones (M60, M52 and possibly M50), that were affected will have been changed under warranty.

M60 and M62's are bulletproof with regular coolant changes. only the cyclone valve gives trouble. be careful if you buy a v8 with a manual 6 speed. if its not a perfect change walk away, they cant be rebuilt as no parts are available and second hand boxes go for £1k with no guarantee they will last any length of time.

i found the fuel consumption ok on my 540i. iirc it was around 25 in town with a light foot, under 20 with a heavy one. long distance 30+ is achievable, better if you have cruise. the x5 is a heavy boat and will probably do far worse though. just LPG it.

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

v8's dont suffer from porous blocks.

If that is demonstrably the case do you not think that BMW would have contended the point with Honest, John? Presumably they would feel that it is essential to protect their reputation?

early M60 (4 litre) v8's had nikasil issues along with a lot of other engines and manufacturers did in the early 90's. i'm pretty sure all x5's will have been fitted with M62 (4.4 litre) v8's and they all had alusil linings on the bores and as such will not suffer from fuel sulphur issues. in any case the high sulphur issues didnt last long anyway and any car currently running a nikasil lined bore will not be affected now so can safely be bought as long as it doesnt run rough on idle and doesnt drink high amounts of oil. most engines, particularly BMW ones (M60, M52 and possibly M50), that were affected will have been changed under warranty.

A brief glimpse on here (about 15 pages down) would confirm that you are quite correct re the X5 V8 – they only fitted the M62. Whilst the sulphur issue (as you say) only applies to cars of the early ‘90s, surely replacement under warranty would only apply if the customer became aware of the problem whilst the vehicle was still under warranty?

M60 and M62's are bulletproof with regular coolant changes. only the cyclone valve gives trouble. be careful if you buy a v8 with a manual 6 speed. if its not a perfect change walk away, they cant be rebuilt as no parts are available and second hand boxes go for £1k with no guarantee they will last any length of time.

What a wonderful example of a premier car manufacturer’s efforts to provide customer satisfaction.

 

[nickso]

If that is demonstrably the case do you not think that BMW would have contended the point with Honest, John? Presumably they would feel that it is essential to protect their reputation?

do i think they should contend the point? don't think its worth it. is it essential to their reputation? probably not. phone them and ask their view on it.

A brief glimpse on www would confirm that you are quite correct re the X5 V8 – they only fitted the M62. Whilst the sulphur issue (as you say) only applies to cars of the early ‘90s, surely replacement under warranty would only apply if the customer became aware of the problem whilst the vehicle was still under warranty?

IIRC BMW swallowed hard and replaced many engines on good faith out of warranty. not all were free, some had to pay the labour but parts were free. i have owned several that have been replaced for free both in and out of warranty. the worst engines, ones that were driven for short journeys, were discovered to be defective quite early on. only the engines that were used for long distances survive today.

i forgot the M50 was iron blocked/steel linered and unaffected.

What a wonderful example of a premier car manufacturer’s efforts to provide customer satisfaction.

the original manual 6 speed was of course provided by a 'box manufacturer and not built by BMW, i forget which one, probably ZF or Getrag. the relatively low volume of sales presumably meant a quick end to spares being made. not really in BMW's hands is it?

pretty sure later manual 6 speeds will be an entirely different 'box but i'm not sure as i don't buy new BMW's.

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

do i think they should contend the point? don't think its worth it. is it essential to their reputation? probably not. phone them and ask their view on it.

Well if HJ or any other automotive pundit make such a claim and that claim goes unchallenged – an assumption here, admittedly – then is some seed of doubt not sown re a manufacturers engineering integrity?

IIRC BMW swallowed hard and replaced many engines on good faith out of warranty. not all were free, some had to pay the labour but parts were free. i have owned several that have been replaced for free both in and out of warranty.

And rightly so, too.

the original manual 6 speed was of course provided by a 'box manufacturer and not built by BMW, i forget which one, probably ZF or Getrag. the relatively low volume of sales presumably meant a quick end to spares being made. not really in BMW's hands is it?

If the customer was made aware at the time of purchase that the gearbox was exempt from the rest of the vehicle’s warranty, then you might well be correct. Failing that, I would expect BMW to be contractually bound for repair/replacement costs in the event of mechanical failure. Furthermore, would ZF or Getrag not be similarly bound to BMW for such failure should it occur?

 

[nickso]

do i think they should contend the point? don't think its worth it. is it essential to their reputation? probably not. phone them and ask their view on it.

Well if HJ or any other automotive pundit make such a claim and that claim goes unchallenged – an assumption here, admittedly – then is some seed of doubt not sown re a manufacturers engineering integrity?

the point to note here is i believe HJ has mistaken the fault for another. makes me wonder if he knows what he's talking about. sulphur eating away the top few millimetres of a bores lining is the actual fault. its commonly been reported as the head or block being "porous", incorrectly of course. i doubt BMW would be bothered about pointing out this error but you never know.

If the customer was made aware at the time of purchase that the gearbox was exempt from the rest of the vehicle’s warranty, then you might well be correct. Failing that, I would expect BMW to be contractually bound for repair/replacement costs in the event of mechanical failure. Furthermore, would ZF or Getrag not be similarly bound to BMW for such failure should it occur?

in warranty yes, outside warranty no.

its generally second gear that fails, although mine jumped out of first a lot too. its generally around the 150k mile mark that it goes depending on how its used (mine had no chance ), usually well out of warranty.

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

the point to note here is i believe HJ has mistaken the fault for another. makes me wonder if he knows what he's talking about. sulphur eating away the top few millimetres of a bores lining is the actual fault. its commonly been reported as the head or block being "porous", incorrectly of course. i doubt BMW would be bothered about pointing out this error but you never know.

HJ isn’t just one individual, nick, there’s about four or five researchers who are constantly receiving input from all sources: punters (like you and I), car hire companies, the breakdown services, dealers and, occasionally, the manufacturers themselves. I am not suggesting that HJ is infallible, there are bound to be mistakes from time to time. For my own recent experience, mostly relating to my partner’s 3 series previous (E46,330i, 2003) and current (E90, 330d, 2009), I have found many of the comments published via HJ to be pretty accurate; not just the symptoms but the advise re rectification. As these are company vehicles it is not a question of personal outlay, but it does draw one’s attention to BMW’s often tardy response to customer criticism. Despite this, BMW’s reputation for high quality products appears cemented in peoples’ estimation. Well done the PR department, I guess.

in warranty yes, outside warranty no.

Agreed.

its generally second gear that fails, although mine jumped out of first a lot too. its generally around the 150k mile mark that it goes depending on how its used (mine had no chance ), usually well out of warranty.

Well 150k seems a pretty reasonable mileage to have achieved if the problem you describe is the only one of concern. I guess you could replace the 6-speed gearbox with an alternative, though, albeit at some considerable cost?


Donkmeister – sorry for going so off-piste on your post. If you have read through this far for some relevant comments and subsequently lost the will to live then please accept our apologies.

 

[nickso]

the point to note here is i believe HJ has mistaken the fault for another. makes me wonder if he knows what he's talking about. sulphur eating away the top few millimetres of a bores lining is the actual fault. its commonly been reported as the head or block being "porous", incorrectly of course. i doubt BMW would be bothered about pointing out this error but you never know.

HJ isn’t just one individual, nick, there’s about four or five researchers who are constantly receiving input from all sources: punters (like you and I), car hire companies, the breakdown services, dealers and, occasionally, the manufacturers themselves. I am not suggesting that HJ is infallible, there are bound to be mistakes from time to time. For my own recent experience, mostly relating to my partner’s 3 series previous (E46,330i, 2003) and current (E90, 330d, 2009), I have found many of the comments published via HJ to be pretty accurate; not just the symptoms but the advise re rectification. As these are company vehicles it is not a question of personal outlay, but it does draw one’s attention to BMW’s often tardy response to customer criticism. Despite this, BMW’s reputation for high quality products appears cemented in peoples’ estimation. Well done the PR department, I guess.

hmm, i wasnt aware of that. if anything that makes it worse. if the HJ "team" don't know the difference between porosity and what amounts to corrosion then joe punter has less chance of making an informed decision.

i don't believe BMW are any worse than any other manufacturer for speed of resolution an any area but never having to deal with that side of owning a BMW and not being likely to ever do so, i'll take your word for it.

any E46 and E90 worth owning is out of my price range and not all that desirable either at the moment. the 330d (don't know the engine code as its too new for me) is one i've been advised to steer clear of.

Well 150k seems a pretty reasonable mileage to have achieved if the problem you describe is the only one of concern. I guess you could replace the 6-speed gearbox with an alternative, though, albeit at some considerable cost?

on the contrary, the solution is simple but lessens the cars ability and possibly its desirability somewhat. simply fit a 5 speed manual from the same model range. cost would be minimal but as the car is likely to be worth next to nothing by then some just send it to the scrap heap.

apologies to donkmeister for spoiling his thread.

 

[Donkmeister]

apologies to donkmeister for spoiling his thread.

Ha, no worries, it's good to know these things!!! Speaking to people who've owned other BMWs (no X5s, unfortunately), they invariably end up on the subjects of nikasil and VANOS...

I didn't even know they did manual X5s - as said earlier the market is a touch limited as most people buy SUVs to be a slushy-boxed sprog-mover.

I'm looking to keep the car for at least 5 years so with I think I might have to find some extra budget to get a sweeter/newer example or go for something a bit more within my price-bracket.

I'll have a read-up on the bimmer forum and HJ.

Thanks guys!

 

[nickso]

VANOS is no big deal and shouldn't be a problem. most issues can be solved by new seals. the only problem may be finding someone to fit them. i've not had the pleasure yet but its not supposed to be a major headache for someone reasonably competent with a good guide to fall back on. IIRC only the later M62B44TU v8's had exhaust VANOS. only the S62 from the M5 has dual VANOS.

manual x5's may well be a myth. i dont'/can't buy new ones so don't know a lot about them apart from the engines i have bought in older models or engines i have stuffed into far older cars.

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

hmm, i wasnt aware of that. if anything that makes it worse. if the HJ "team" don't know the difference between porosity and what amounts to corrosion then joe punter has less chance of making an informed decision.

OK, tell you what, nick, let’s put it to HJ, then? I’ll email him re our concerns over the source of the published info and see what the response is? It will hopefully be worth seeing the outcome.

i don't believe BMW are any worse than any other manufacturer for speed of resolution an any area but never having to deal with that side of owning a BMW and not being likely to ever do so, i'll take your word for it.

I do not suggest BMW are any worse, just not really any better than other manufacturers. I hope that doesn’t sound too jaundiced, but I feel they all fall a bit short in the customer services department. I shall refrain from going into too much detail re the litany of problems we had but the first vehicle was from a dealer (no longer franchised) – I suspect that their negligence was the cause of a lot of our dissatisfaction. On the new car an autobox relay prevented the car being started in neutral. They did get it sorted but, still, this sort of experience is a bit ropey. The newer dealer is definitely a lot better than the previous, though.

Any E46 and E90 worth owning is out of my price range and not all that desirable either at the moment. the 330d (don't know the engine code as its too new for me) is one i've been advised to steer clear of.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of a premium product then, is it? My partner said she saw our neighbours car (exactly the same model) on the back of a breakdown truck a coupe of weeks back. I will try and have word to find out the cause. That said, for a diesel auto – and I would not have chosen either - it is almost as quick as the previous petrol, except it achieves around 55mpg – amazing, as the petrol never returned better than 32mpg. So no complaints in the performance/economy department.

on the contrary, the solution is simple but lessens the cars ability and possibly its desirability somewhat. simply fit a 5 speed manual from the same model range. cost would be minimal but as the car is likely to be worth next to nothing by then some just send it to the scrap heap.

If the owner has the wherewithal to replace with a 5 speed then that has got to be a better bet than the scrappy, surely?

I didn't even know they did manual X5s - as said earlier the market is a touch limited as most people buy SUVs to be a slushy-boxed sprog-mover.

I'm looking to keep the car for at least 5 years so with I think I might have to find some extra budget to get a sweeter/newer example or go for something a bit more within my price-bracket.

I don’t think either of us said they did. We just derailed your post, regardless . I think the only option for a manual box is with the 3.0 diesel or petrol engine as they probably do not make a m/gb that is able to cope with the high torque outputs of the V8s.

One thing to be wary of, DM, is the autobox fluid. As HJ specifies in the earlier post (sound of nickso grinding his teeth ) the fact that BMW make no recommendation for the fluid to be changed is widely condemned. I do not know if it is the case on the X5 but certainly on earlier models there is not even a drainplug on the box. A friend of mine recently inherited an E38 728i from his father. This was a ’96 model that had been scrupulously looked after with all servicing carried out by the franchised dealer. Having become aware that of the need for fluid change – via the forums, no less – he was told that he would have to have a plug tapped into the box in order that the fluid change could be made. I do not know if he has had this done but if he intends hanging on to the vehicle it would be sensible. Actually, I'll have to check my other half's car and see if hers is fitted with such a plug.

Have a good check of the forums, though, DM, they’re stuffed with knowledge.

 

[nickso]

hmm, i wasnt aware of that. if anything that makes it worse. if the HJ "team" don't know the difference between porosity and what amounts to corrosion then joe punter has less chance of making an informed decision.

OK, tell you what, nick, let’s put it to HJ, then? I’ll email him re our concerns over the source of the published info and see what the response is? It will hopefully be worth seeing the outcome.

fair enough, i would be interested to see what he says.

I do not suggest BMW are any worse, just not really any better than other manufacturers. I hope that doesn’t sound too jaundiced, but I feel they all fall a bit short in the customer services department. I shall refrain from going into too much detail re the litany of problems we had but the first vehicle was from a dealer (no longer franchised) – I suspect that their negligence was the cause of a lot of our dissatisfaction. On the new car an autobox relay prevented the car being started in neutral. They did get it sorted but, still, this sort of experience is a bit ropey. The newer dealer is definitely a lot better than the previous, though.

this is why i don't buy newer BMW's. i could probably just about afford one but the quality isn't there anymore and the only one i would even consider is a 135 coupe sport. i'll probably wait for 20 years until they are worthless.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of a premium product then, is it? My partner said she saw our neighbours car (exactly the same model) on the back of a breakdown truck a coupe of weeks back. I will try and have word to find out the cause. That said, for a diesel auto – and I would not have chosen either - it is almost as quick as the previous petrol, except it achieves around 55mpg – amazing, as the petrol never returned better than 32mpg. So no complaints in the performance/economy department.

i'm not a diseasel man so wouldn't even entertain one. even a confirmed planet raper like myself draws the line at the pollution that drops out the back of one of those things. if i needed MPG i would go LPG.

i believe the biggy on the 3.0 diesel is the pump, if it goes its megabucks. not sure if the 3.0 has the same tendency to drop the swirl flaps into the engine like the 2.0 does but that would be another worry.

all these cars that have everything coded to them (the cigarette lighter will be coded next) with CANBUS systems and miles of wiring are heading for an early grave IMO. at ten years old no one is going to spend £xxx on a new thingamjig that must be coded by BMW at £120 an hour. its a shame as the bodywork is getting so much better but the technobollocks is getting so much more ridiculous.

If the owner has the wherewithal to replace with a 5 speed then that has got to be a better bet than the scrappy, surely?

well its good for someone like me that buys em cheap as breakers and then gets a 'box fitted.

i'll need to ask my mate if he has a drain/fill for his e38 728i. i'm sure it has.

 

[chainsaw_masochist]

fair enough, i would be interested to see what he says.

I will try to put something together in the next couple of days.

this is why i don't buy newer BMW's. i could probably just about afford one but the quality isn't there anymore and the only one i would even consider is a 135 coupe sport. i'll probably wait for 20 years until they are worthless.

Blimey, I never even knew that engine fitted the one series. Must move like an oap to a public khazi.

i'm not a diseasel man so wouldn't even entertain one. even a confirmed planet raper like myself draws the line at the pollution that drops out the back of one of those things. if i needed MPG i would go LPG.

She had no choice as it was the firm’s policy, believe it or not, in the name of the environment. Another example of the great CO2 swindle.

i believe the biggy on the 3.0 diesel is the pump, if it goes its megabucks. not sure if the 3.0 has the same tendency to drop the swirl flaps into the engine like the 2.0 does but that would be another worry.

all these cars that have everything coded to them (the cigarette lighter will be coded next) with CANBUS systems and miles of wiring are heading for an early grave IMO. at ten years old no one is going to spend £xxx on a new thingamjig that must be coded by BMW at £120 an hour. its a shame as the bodywork is getting so much better but the technobollocks is getting so much more ridiculous.

Plenty more to read up on. Thanks.

well its good for someone like me that buys em cheap as breakers and then gets a 'box fitted.

Go for it, nickso.

 

[nickso]

Blimey, I never even knew that engine fitted the one series. Must move like an oap to a public khazi.

i've never driven one of course but it looks like a modern take on the E30 which is the appeal to me. they are supposedly quite rapid but with some of the E30's i have owned with big motors in the effect might not be so amazing.

She had no choice as it was the firm’s policy, believe it or not, in the name of the environment. Another example of the great CO2 swindle.

ah yes, the company green policy my own lot have fallen foul recently and given managers seat leon ecoturds. it should be illegal to have a green badge or the letters E C and O on anything with a diesel.

i'm still ****ed off they got rid of leaded petrol in favour for unleaded with a load of ****e added to it to burn like leaded did.

will these enviromentalists ever learn?