Heat bank & boiler connections

[gaswizzard]

. You didn't know CH can be hydraulically 100% separated.

.

Do you realise just how silly your comments come across? 'hydraulically 100% seperated' ... ..please.

Can you even explain what the term 'hydraulic separation' means?

 

[JonasX]

. You didn't know CH can be hydraulically 100% separated.

.

Do you realise just how silly your comments come across? 'hydraulically 100% seperated' ... ..please.

You have been a fool of as your knowledge on this topic is little more than nil. The http://heatweb.com/ web site has design software. You add the CH coil and they deliver for you. All in stainless steel.

 

[gaswizzard]

You add the CH coil .

Space heating utilising a seperate coil fitted to TS is NOT hydraulic separation.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Right,

Currently my store is heated to 80+ degrees. via a Coopra Heat only boiler. However, it is thinking strange things as it is both a B and a C variant.

The bottom of the store is designed to hit 55.

I play with the settings of both the boiler and the store periodically - as has been mentioned here already. I have software and cables to directly interface with my boiler and change settings that aren't actually listed including a (yawn) Legionella reduction program... hang on missus calling from Japan - will be back soon....

 

[Dan Robinson]

Right were was I.

Yep...

While I freely accept that sludge in a system will naturally collect in a TS, it will also collect in the systems rads, and will (in a properly deigned/fitted system) no more prone to sludge collection than any other wet heating system.

Puller has yet to tell me where these huge accumulations of sludge come from in all these systems he has come across.

Nor these Albion systems that have apparently managed to clog pumps in a matter of weeks. I ask... where has all this come from. Surely radiators will be perforating all over the show? What was the installation defect that caused it? A large vessel of water is not the cause. It is the recipient.

Onetap you have failed repeatedly to answer my questions on what combi manufacturers do about 60 degree delivery, and Puller is, well, Puller. the amount of respect you have on the online community is pretty low. Your pitiful whining about not being allowed into the CC is only matched the idiocy that keeps you out (2 minute tightness tests spring to mind).

Ironically I was in favour of giving you a reprieve and letting you back in based on good behaviour - do i still think that? I'll leave you guessing.


I have little argument with GW. A TS is the natural settling point of any sludge in the system. What no one is prepared to state is where all this nasty sludge comes from. I suspect they have spent years installing system that create sludge, and therefore expect all systems to do so. So a TS is the natural target for something irrationally disliked and feared.

Keep trying lads and lasses. I await some facts that have any real bearing on the debate.

it seems the OP has long since given up, and I can't blame him.

 

[Onetap]

Puller has yet to tell me where these huge accumulations of sludge come from in all these systems he has come across.

Then allow me. It is the large expansion volume that a large cylinder of heated water will require. A large volume of water is displaced into the expansion tank where it absorbs oxygen from the atmosphere. On cooling the water is drawn back into the system and the oxygenated water causes corrosion. Sludge is the product of that corrosion.

The Powermax was a sealed system and had no corrosion problems SFAIK.

Onetap you have failed repeatedly to answer my questions on what combi manufacturers do about 60 degree delivery.

I answered your question, but you were too busy arguing about a point I had never made to notice.

All the combis are capable of producing water at 60 degC at reduced flow rates and this should pasteurize any legionella or biofilms that have colonized the pipes. If you were to ask the manufacturers about the recommended distribution temperatures, they will refer you to L8, or give you the same information that is in L8. Anything else would expose them to legal action. You try and get one of them to give you a written recommendation for a distribution temperaure of 50 degC or less.

The data you posted was for a bare heat exchanger and it was written to give a misleading impression of the PHX's performance.

The requirements in the Water Regulations are stored at NLT 60 and distributed at a temperature of NLT 55 degC (strange that). However the guidance G18.2 also says; "This water distribution temperature may not be achievable where hot water is provided by instantaneous or combination boilers."

It doesn't say what hazards associated at distributing at less than 55 degC are, and it doesn't give you a 'Get out of Jail' ticket if someone gets legionnaires' disease from a combi boiler system you've installed that couldn't achieve 55 degC. If you were to set a legal precedent on this, I'd expect you might spend some time inside.

 

[Dan Robinson]

My TS is sealed. Those I fit generally are.

You didn't answer my combi question. You evaded it. What do Manufacturer's say about distributing water from their combis at sub 60 degree temperatures? Naff all is tha answer, because they can't. If they were that worried they would fit flow restrictors to guarantee that temperature. Not the established flow rates/kW output.

Nor did you demonstrate any combi manufacturers documentation where it gives 60 degree delivery figures.
I offer you Intergas and Atmos as possible candidates, but not Vaillant (except perhaps the 937 Plus?).

The data I posted for the Plate heat exchanger made no reference to the use of the two sides of the plate, only the temperature differential, and that data was not made readily available to the end user. It was for the reference of people like you and I. Where did the data claim purpose of the plate?

I shall ask you yet another question:

How many people with domestic combination boilers contracted Legionella's disease from said boilers last year? Or any year in fact?

What does your magic book say to do where an instantaneous source of hot water is present?

 

[gaswizzard]

My TS is sealed. Those I fit generally are.

So you have an indirect TS (open vented) with the boiler/heating circuit sealed?

I think the confusion here (sludge buckets) relates only to the direct units whereby constant ingress of air being a problem as onetap suggested.

 

[JonasX]

It is the large expansion volume that a large cylinder of heated water will require. A large volume of water is displaced into the expansion tank where it absorbs oxygen from the atmosphere. On cooling the water is drawn back into the system and the oxygenated water causes corrosion. Sludge is the product of that corrosion.

That is the same for any open vented system. What you are on about is poor thermal store design. The water in the header tank should not be drawn into the main body of the cylinder. Some thermal stores do not have expansion tanks any more. Just one big open tank with a ball valve in it. This reduces sludge build up.

The Powermax was a sealed system and had no corrosion problems SFAIK.

So thermal stores do not have sludge problem when properly designed. Hooray he is getting there.

All the combis are capable of producing water at 60 degC at reduced flow rates and this should pasteurize any legionella or biofilms that have colonized the pipes. If you were to ask the manufacturers about the recommended distribution temperatures, they will refer you to L8, or give you the same information that is in L8. Anything else would expose them to legal action. You try and get one of them to give you a written recommendation for a distribution temperaure of 50 degC or less.

A combi can have the DHW set to maximum and a blending valve on the DHW outlet if Leigonella is a problem. millions do not and it not a problem with instantly heated water.

A neighbors ATAG is preset to 52C DHW temp which is user changeable.

 

[JonasX]

My TS is sealed. Those I fit generally are.

So you have an indirect TS (open vented) with the boiler/heating circuit sealed?

I think the confusion here (sludge buckets) relates only to the direct units whereby constant ingress of air being a problem as onetap suggested.

Dan wrote "sealed". That is pressurized like a combi system and heated directly without a coil between the boiler and the cylinder. A Worcester-Bosch floor standing combi, the High Flow, has a thermal store that is pressurized.

It is encouraging that you are now getting to know the differences of design and attempting to figure out why the poorly designed thermal stores sludge up and the correct designed versions do not and last a lifetime heating hot water and CH more cheaply and efficiently. Two versions of non-sludging thermals store were given here, used by onetap and Dan.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Perhaps I should have said unvented. But yes. But that was primarily due to the boiler I wanted not being able to run open vented.

Personally I don't think a coil is worth using as it defeats much of the purpose of a TS - it will suffer similar inefficiencies to an Unvented cylinder.

Right I am off today to fit an OSO super S. Handy to have variation in your arsenal.

 

[JonasX]

Perhaps I should have said unvented. But yes. But that was primarily due to the boiler I wanted not being able to run open vented.

Personally I don't think a coil is worth using as it defeats much of the purpose of a TS - it will suffer similar inefficiencies to an Unvented cylinder.

Right I am off today to fit an OSO super S. Handy to have variation in your arsenal.

a) If open vented: The best is heating the thermal store directly from boiler and heating the CH indirectly via a a largish coil. No sludge and very efficient. But in your case a boiler that keeps a 35C temperature differential sensing the return is great. If the bottom of the store is 30C, it will be pushing out 65C at the flow. Then set the thermal store to 65C if using a DHW plate heat exchanger.

b) If unvented (sealed): There is no need for any coil anywhere, however a Fernox filter on the rad loop back to the cylinder is desirable.

None of the above will sludge up. The second will be direct all around and work highly efficiently.

 

[JonasX]

You add the CH coil .

Space heating utilising a seperate coil fitted to TS is NOT hydraulic separation.

It is as the water in both is very separate to each other. They do not mix.

 

[Onetap]

You add the CH coil .

Space heating utilising a separate coil fitted to TS is NOT hydraulic separation.

It is as the water is both is very separate to each other. They do not mix.

I thought I needed to quote that statement before you started Googling for a clue about hydraulic separation, discovered how very, very wrong you are and edited it to make it appear that you aren't the clueless buffoon that we all know you to be.

 

[DeltaT2]

.................and Puller is, well, Puller. the amount of respect you have on the online community is pretty low. Your pitiful whining about not being allowed into the CC is only matched the idiocy that keeps you out (2 minute tightness tests spring to mind).



The online community?? What you & that nutter Water Systems??
Give me a break, you're one & the same.
Whine, whine!!.............

Note to self; Don't do any domestic gas tightness testing, you'll be in danger of taking out the whole street, you forgot to let your old dirty 'U' gauge stabilise for a minute you fool, that's 60 seconds!!

The sludge in a SLUDGE BUCKET comes from the ferrous metals in the system, as a result of a high oxygen levels in the system, due to the quantity of water in the said system. This quantity can be more than twice that of a standard sealed system.
Water Systems you're a complete tozzer!!!..............