Pulling Main Fuse E-Petition

[ban-all-sheds]

So you propose giving every household in the country a nice safe way to bypass the meter.....

 

[JohnW2]

So you propose giving every household in the country a nice safe way to bypass the meter.....

If you'd read the last page or two of the thread before responding, you would have known what I was talking about.

The implication of your comment is rather worrying. You appear to be suggesting that a reason for having non-switched cutouts is that it represents a deliberate potentially lethal deterrent to meter bypassing - which, of course, would be unlawful (just like any other potentially dangerous/lethal burgular deterrent).

That concern aside, I very much doubt that it would make any material difference to the incidence of meter bypassing - many/most of those inclined to do that woluld not be slow to pull live fuses (or, in some cases, effect the bypassing without any isolation at all)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you'd read the last page or two of the thread before responding, you would have known what I was talking about.

I knew what you were talking about.

The implication of your comment is rather worrying. You appear to be suggesting that a reason for having non-switched cutouts is that it represents a deliberate potentially lethal deterrent to meter bypassing - which,

I'm not.

That concern aside, I very much doubt that it would make any material difference to the incidence of meter bypassing

I'm sure there would be more of it.

 

[JohnW2]

If you'd read the last page or two of the thread before responding, you would have known what I was talking about.

I knew what you were talking about.

Fair enough - but if that's the case, then, as a matter of interest, why did you ask me a series of semi-rhetorical questions about something you knew I was not talking about?

The implication of your comment is rather worrying. You appear to be suggesting that a reason for having non-switched cutouts is that it represents a deliberate potentially lethal deterrent to meter bypassing - which,

I'm not.

Hmmm - mighty close, I would say! You were 'criticising' the concept of switched cutouts because you felt it would increase the incidence of meter bypassing. If any such thought is part of the DNO's reason for not using switched cutouts, it would mean that they (if not also you) saw an ('acceptable') advantage in (otherwise 'unnecessarily') continuing to present potential meter bypasses with a potentially lethal 'deterrent'.

That concern aside, I very much doubt that it would make any material difference to the incidence of meter bypassing

I'm sure there would be more of it.

As I said, I personally think the difference would be slight. We disagree.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I'm sure there are some who are put off from "fiddling" because it's all live and "dangerous". Making it easier to switch off will, I'm sure, assist a small proportion of people who are currently put off.

That is not the same thing as it being a deliberate "lethal deterrent".

 

[JohnW2]

I'm sure there are some who are put off from "fiddling" because it's all live and "dangerous". Making it easier to switch off will, I'm sure, assist a small proportion of people who are currently put off.

I'm sure that's right - but, as you will have seen, my view is that this would be only a very small effect. Of course, I may be wrong.

That is not the same thing as it being a deliberate "lethal deterrent".

Not literally the same, I agree, but not far off. If the proportion of would-be-bypassers currently put off by the absence of a switch is small, it follows that the proportion of them who are currently not put off by the absence of a switch is large. If the DNO know/believe that, it means that they are allowing a situation to persist which could represent a lethal threat to those people. I agree that 'deliberate' is not neceessarily part of it - we are probably talking about potential negligence, rather than malicious intent.

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

Theres also a lot of people i have met wont pull the fuse due to a little sticky label mentioning fine or imprisonment, maybe an isolater within the sealed cut out for dno use should be in place this day and age of H+S but I think an accessible one may encourage more users to attempt fiddling .

 

[JohnW2]

Theres also a lot of people i have met wont pull the fuse due to a little sticky label mentioning fine or imprisonment, maybe an isolater within the sealed cut out for dno use should be in place this day and age of H+S but I think an accessible one may encourage more users to attempt fiddling .

I would certainly have no problem with the switch/isolator being 'sealed' in the same way as the cutout fuses currently are - anyone prepared to cut the seals and 'tamper with' the fuses would presumably be equally prepared to unseal the switch/isolator, but would thereby be exposed to less risks.

KInd Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

Agree there john, as westie says not practible to change all, but if New or replacements were remodelled, even if one DNO incident is prevented then its worth it.
The DNO man round here says they have had a few serious incidents where there staff were complacent and only months ago I witnesssed one pull a welded in fuse using water pump pliers crumbling the housing to peaces, no PPE at all but his mate joked that hes a jointer and hes used to live work

 

[JohnW2]

Agree there john, as westie says not practible to change all, but if New or replacements were remodelled, even if one DNO incident is prevented then its worth it.

Exactly, and that's all I've ever suggested. If switched cutouts were always installed in new installations, or when old cutouts were replaced, it may take a good few decades before most of them were switched, but we would be moving in the right direction all the time.

Nor, obviously, is it just 'DNO (or meter operator) incidents', even if it should be. We all know that, even though they "shouldn't", plenty of other people (including some completely untrained members of the public) do pull cutout fuses and/or do other things within cutouts.

The DNO man round here says they have had a few serious incidents where there staff were complacent and only months ago I witnesssed one pull a welded in fuse using water pump pliers crumbling the housing to peaces, no PPE at all but his mate joked that hes a jointer and hes used to live work

Unfortunately, we hear so many of these stories that they can't all be fiction - so westie's view of what actually happens in the real world seems rather over-optimistic, even if it shouldn't be. I suppose that, over the decades, I've witnessed cutout fuses being removed/replaced, or cutouts worked on, by DNO or MO staff, just a 'large handful' of times times (maybe 20-40 as a wild guess). FWIW, I recall having occasionally seen a single glove used, but never more PPE than that, and very often no PPE at all. On just one of those occasions, I saw the fuse holder disintegrate, but fortunately with no unpleasant consequences.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I suppose that, over the decades, I've witnessed cutout fuses being removed/replaced, or cutouts worked on, by DNO or MO staff, just a 'large handful' of times times (maybe 20-40 as a wild guess). FWIW, I recall having occasionally seen a single glove used, but never more PPE than that, and very often no PPE at all. On just one of those occasions, I saw the fuse holder disintegrate, but fortunately with no unpleasant consequences.

I can't help thinking that the staff have a good idea of which cutouts exhibit problems and use judgement in selecting PPE.
If they are working on a very modern unit, with no obvious damage, and the carrier pulls out without tools - then little risk.
If they find the fuse won't pull by hand, or it's an old unit that is known to be troublesome, or there's obvious damage, etc - then I'd expect people will tend to be a little more careful.

Much the same as in normal life. If I were handling some concentrated acid (eg refilling batteries) I'd be fairly careful both in how I handled it and in choice of PPE. One the other hand, millions of people handle dilute acid every day without any PPE (though personally I prefer my chips without vinegar).
Though having written that, I can't help wondering how long before some H&S nazi* decides PPE is required for handling small amounts of dilute acetic acid

* I don't mean HSE or all those people who actually understand risk. I mean those little hitlers who see a risk and demand that it must be eliminated because they cannot assess it - the same ones that insist on "hi vis everywhere" regardless of whether it does any good.

 

[JohnW2]

I can't help thinking that the staff have a good idea of which cutouts exhibit problems and use judgement in selecting PPE.
If they are working on a very modern unit, with no obvious damage, and the carrier pulls out without tools - then little risk.
If they find the fuse won't pull by hand, or it's an old unit that is known to be troublesome, or there's obvious damage, etc - then I'd expect people will tend to be a little more careful.
Much the same as in normal life. If I were handling some concentrated acid (eg refilling batteries) I'd be fairly careful both in how I handled it and in choice of PPE. One the other hand, millions of people handle dilute acid every day without any PPE (though personally I prefer my chips without vinegar).

I'm sure that's right (or, at least, should be right). It also corresponds to common sense and, as you imply, should go a long way to minimisising injuries. Indeed, I would dare to speculate that a good few of us who are 'unauthorised' have, in our time, pulled cutout fuses with only common sense precautions (in relation to the age/condition of the equipment). However, we are repeatedly being told that DNO (and presumably MO) staff are not 'allowed' to exercise any such discretion - although, as you suggest (and, I think, we all know) many do seem to exercise that discretion.

Nor am I sure that your analogy is a particularly good one. Vinegar is never going to represent a serious hazard, even in eyes. A better analogy might be the difference between 'pouring' battery acid and 'handling' battery acid in a sealed container.

I suppose my main concern is not in relation to trained/'authorised' persons but to the 'other persons' who, on ocassions, will inevitably pull cutout fuses. Simplistic seals and labels saying that 'tampering is not allowed' are never going to stop everyone. In general, the courts are fairly unsympathetic to an argument that harm has come to someone as a result of something unsafe simply because they were only exposed to the danger because they were comitting a criminal act (squatters have been known to succesfully sue property owners over hazards that have resulted in harm). I don't know whether there is any specific case law about this, but the measures taken to prevent opening of cutouts (present in virtually every home in the country) by unauthorised people are so trivial that it wouldn't surprise me if a court might sometimes find a DNO negligent in making it so easy for a member of the public to suffer serious harm.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Dear God.

I'd better start stockpiling kitchen knives, lest someone sues a maker for producing something so easily grasped in a way which causes grievous bodily harm....


And would anybody be surprised to find out that if you have vinegar in a science lab it has to be stored in the acids cabinet?

 

[planemad]

I suppose that, over the decades, I've witnessed cutout fuses being removed/replaced, or cutouts worked on, by DNO or MO staff, just a 'large handful' of times times (maybe 20-40 as a wild guess). FWIW, I recall having occasionally seen a single glove used, but never more PPE than that, and very often no PPE at all. On just one of those occasions, I saw the fuse holder disintegrate, but fortunately with no unpleasant consequences.

I can't help thinking that the staff have a good idea of which cutouts exhibit problems and use judgement in selecting PPE.
If they are working on a very modern unit, with no obvious damage, and the carrier pulls out without tools - then little risk.
If they find the fuse won't pull by hand, or it's an old unit that is known to be troublesome, or there's obvious damage, etc - then I'd expect people will tend to be a little more careful.

Much the same as in normal life. If I were handling some concentrated acid (eg refilling batteries) I'd be fairly careful both in how I handled it and in choice of PPE. One the other hand, millions of people handle dilute acid every day without any PPE (though personally I prefer my chips without vinegar).
Though having written that, I can't help wondering how long before some H&S nazi* decides PPE is required for handling small amounts of dilute acetic acid

* I don't mean HSE or all those people who actually understand risk. I mean those little hitlers who see a risk and demand that it must be eliminated because they cannot assess it - the same ones that insist on "hi vis everywhere" regardless of whether it does any good.

Same here as per my earlier post - I have seen so many fuse pulls with no PPE - Lets face it pulling the fuse in not really that dangerous.
I will happily pull all plastic fuse carriers but steer clear from the cast iron ones.

I pull bigger fuses in work in the industrial factory I work in and when I was working as a apprentice at the Dagenham Ford Factory it was a common practice as there were so many DBs with upto 120a fuses.

 

[JohnW2]

I pull bigger fuses in work in the industrial factory I work in and when I was working as a apprentice at the Dagenham Ford Factory it was a common practice as there were so many DBs with upto 120a fuses.

Are/were they fuses with no upstream switches/isolators?

Kind Regards, John