Pulling Main Fuse E-Petition

Are/were they fuses with no upstream switches/isolators?
Probably not, but then they would almost certainly have been pulled live because the alternative would be to knock off the whole board - and hence everything it supplies.

Bear in mind that contrary to what is being said, there is actually a means of cutting the supply upstream of the DNO's cutout - but it won't be used for the same reason, it would be "somewhat unpopular" if they took out 1/3 of a street because one house was having a new CU.
 
Bear in mind that contrary to what is being said, there is actually a means of cutting the supply upstream of the DNO's cutout - but it won't be used for the same reason, it would be "somewhat unpopular" if they took out 1/3 of a street because one house was having a new CU.
It's not contrary to what I've been talking about, which is a local means of isolation - i.e. the use of 'switch-fuses', rather than just fuses, as 'cutouts' in domestic installations.

I presume that if we were talking about a domestic consumer's side of the meter, no-one would be suggesting that, say, a sub-main could/should be protected by an unswitched fuse, rather than a 'switch-fuse'. Even the cast iron domestic 'fuse boxes' I was brought up on in my youth had a switch which also acted as a door interlock. The whole discussion is therefore really about whether it is reasonable to forego those long-standing safety-based principles in favour of training and PPE (and the hope that 'unauthorised' people will not 'tamper') on the other side of the meter.

Kind Regards, John
 
I pull bigger fuses in work in the industrial factory I work in and when I was working as a apprentice at the Dagenham Ford Factory it was a common practice as there were so many DBs with upto 120a fuses.
Are/were they fuses with no upstream switches/isolators?

Kind Regards, John

There twas done live - its was difficult to stop the lines when on a run.
We were trained to do it, When I was in my final year I got the training but did it many times before with my mentors watching (senior fitters).
 
What you all disagreeing with each other about?

Come one - its the main fuse - sparkies pull it all the time.
the petition is just to make it legal for them to do so.

The fitting of an isolator is another issue and should not be on that petition. It should have its own as it too would be a good move.
 
What you all disagreeing with each other about? Come one - its the main fuse - sparkies pull it all the time.
the petition is just to make it legal for them to do so. The fitting of an isolator is another issue and should not be on that petition. It should have its own as it too would be a good move.
The matter of the (poorly drafted/conceived) petition was put to bed aboyt 4 pages ago. The subsequent discussion resulted from the fact that, back on page 3, I 'innocently' asked:
... am I the only person who is quite amazed that, in the 21st century, we still regard it as acceptable for unswitched 'cutouts'/'main fuses' to be installed?
As for the petition and fuse-pulling, my understanding is that it already is 'legal' (in terms of safety legislation) for any 'adequately trained person' (not only 'DNO staff') to pull the fuses. Unless you want electricians who are not 'adequately trained' to be allowed to do it, what changes to legislation do you think the government need to be asked to enact? As far as I can see, if there is a problem it's that DNOs may try to argue that non-DNO personnel (no matter how trained) should not 'interfere with their property', which is a totally different matter.

Kind Regards, John
 
The matter of the (poorly drafted/conceived) petition
In your opinion of course...
Yes, in my opinion, and also the opinions of others who have posted in this thread.

One can scatter 'IMO' all over the place in posts, but is that really necessary? Is it not implicit that anything which anyone writes here is 'their opinion'?

Kind Regards, John
 
Bear in mind that contrary to what is being said, there is actually a means of cutting the supply upstream of the DNO's cutout - but it won't be used for the same reason, it would be "somewhat unpopular" if they took out 1/3 of a street because one house was having a new CU.

Which is why the DNOs went through hoops with the HSE to enable us to work live on cut-outs and our LV network which appears contrary to the EAWR.

The changing of the design to include a switch could also have implications in our ability to change these live.
 
Doesn't matter how you design the cutout and integral switch - you will still have a live cable coming into it. If you need to work on the cutout rather than what comes after it, then you are still going to be working live.

And adding a switch will increase the number of items which can fail. Only a very small risk, but scaled over a few million installed units, could this potentially cause more problems than it saves ?
Hmm, now that innocent question might stoke the debate - now where did I leave the popcorn ?
 
Doesn't matter how you design the cutout and integral switch - you will still have a live cable coming into it. If you need to work on the cutout rather than what comes after it, then you are still going to be working live.
Exactly, and I presume that was what westie was talking about. If I understood him correctly, he was suggesting that if DNOs changed to using cutouts with integral switches, that might present a problem in installing/changing them live. I still stick by what I said - i.e. that such a problem would only exist if they had been badly designed, without consideration of what westie and his colleagues would want to be able to do with them. Do you disagree?
And adding a switch will increase the number of items which can fail. Only a very small risk, but scaled over a few million installed units, could this potentially cause more problems than it saves ?
Yep, that's a classic argument, particularly in relation to post-meter isolators. It's obviously a 'risk' - but given that we're talking about a switch which will be operated only once in a blue moon, I would expect the number of 'failures' due to the existance of a switch would be minute, even amongst millions of installed units, wouldn't you?

Kind Regards, John
 
It's obviously a 'risk' - but given that we're talking about a switch which will be operated only once in a blue moon, I would expect the number of 'failures' due to the existance of a switch would be minute, even amongst millions of installed units, wouldn't you?

But do you not think that in itself could be a risk? That the switch when called upon to operate is jammed or seized on thus making it useless.
 
But do you not think that in itself could be a risk? That the switch when called upon to operate is jammed or seized on thus making it useless.
Of course it's 'a risk', but I'm suggesting that it would be a tiny one. In any event, if the design were such that a jammed/siezed switch did not prevent the cutout being opened, you'd then be in no worse a situation (hence at no greater risk) than if there had been no switch.

Kind Regards, John
 
Exactly, and I presume that was what westie was talking about. If I understood him correctly, he was suggesting that if DNOs changed to using cutouts with integral switches, that might present a problem in installing/changing them live. I still stick by what I said - i.e. that such a problem would only exist if they had been badly designed, without consideration of what westie and his colleagues would want to be able to do with them. Do you disagree?
Yes I disagree.

You have a cutout - it can have a fuse, a switch, flashing lights, dancing bears for all I care, but ...

When Westie and his colleagues come to install a supply, or replace a damaged cutout, or whatever, they still have to prepare and attach the cable into it. That cable will still be live*, the terminals it connects to (which by definition are upstream of the integral switch) will still be live, and so for many operations it will make no difference.

However, by adding the switch, they've effectively admitted that the current system is unsafe - and so they cannot do the live work any more. Result ? When a cutout needs changing, they need to turn off 1/3 of the houses in the street by pulling an upstream fuse (or opening a switch). That'll be popular :roll:


* OK, for a new install they may well install the cutout and the supply cable into it before jointing the supply cable into the main feeder - but that jointing will still be done live.
 

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