No EIC for recent Flat conversion

[frank999]

I have a flat conversion coming to completion.

One flat was 'mostly' completed by a builder - who left under a slight cloud.

During works they informed me the electrics would be Certified by an electrician who trusted them, and worked with them.
I was given his number, not that I believed it was my responsibility to contact him, I believed the builders would take care of everything.
These builders run away back in January leaving parts of the job unfinished (inc the Certification of electrics), and it is only now I am aware of the 30 day limit, after looking to get certification.

My usual electrician, has refused to certify their work, which I understand, as he does not know of them, or their work. He can provide an EICR, but I understand that legally its the EIC I need.
He has installed the CU for all the circuits and tested them ready for issuing an an EICR.

I called the Builders electrician, who was very communicative - he vaguely recalled being told about the job, but as it was 'completed' over 30 days ago he feels he cannot Certify it.
Cable runs under floors are still visible, carpets are not yet down - only the lighting circuits in the ceilings are un-accessable.

My BCO is happy to sign off with either an EIC or EICR, but as far as I understand the EIC is the correct documentation that I should possess.

The Builders electrician has said he will speak to the NICEIC to ask if he can do anything ...

Where do I stand with this, its unreasonable to go ripping down ceilings and opening up wall chases for a visual inspection of the installed lighting circuits, some socket circuit cable runs are under a floor screed, so that cannot be opened up.
I guess socket and lighting cables could be re-run along walls in chases with new cable - to allow the electrician to inspect (or install), its do-able but a right headache.

What is the most 'reasonably practicable' way to resolve this, if I am correct to think an EIC is what is required.

 

[JohnW2]

My BCO is happy to sign off with either an EIC or EICR, but as far as I understand the EIC is the correct documentation that I should possess.
..... its unreasonable to go ripping down ceilings and opening up wall chases for a visual inspection of the installed lighting circuits, some socket circuit cable runs are under a floor screed, so that cannot be opened up. I guess socket and lighting cables could be re-run along walls in chases with new cable - to allow the electrician to inspect (or install), its do-able but a right headache.

Pragmatically speaking, since an EICR does not involve any destructive work or re-doing anything, if your BCO is prepared to accept an EICR, that would seem the most painless solution!

Kind Regards, John

 

[frank999]

Thanks for the reply

if your BCO is prepared to accept an EICR, that would seem the most painless solution!
Yes, which I find odd, I expected them to require an EIC, but at least thats one hurdle over come, unsure if finance (mortgage) co. solicitors might require an EIC though.

What is the legal position for a new install, if it only has an EICR, and not an EIC.

 

[JohnW2]

if your BCO is prepared to accept an EICR, that would seem the most painless solution!
Yes, which I find odd, I expected them to require an EIC, but at least thats one hurdle over come, unsure if finance (mortgage) co. solicitors might require an EIC though.

I would not anticipate any problems with such third parties. If work is notified to the LABC then by providing a Completion Certificate they are confirming that the work was satisfactory, regardless of what (EIC, EICR, their own inspector etc.) brought them to that conclusion - so I would have thought that the third parties ought to be happy with a Completion Certificate.

What is the legal position for a new install, if it only has an EICR, and not an EIC.

That would obviously not normally happen but the only legal requirements are that electrical work should comply with Part P of the Building Regs (which simply says that it should be done 'safely', with absolutely no detail) and that, if it is notifiable work (which it would be) it is notified to the LABC. So, as above, if there is a Completion Certificate (or Compliance Certificate) from LABC (confirming compliance with Part P), then the law will have been fully satisfied.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

If done under Part P with LABC doing the inspection with DIY you very rarely get an EIC, in fact when I did mothers wet room the LABC inspector did not want my EIC he wanted an EICR from a third party electrician. Remember BS7671 is not law, but can be used in a court of law.

Yes I know with rented property it is referred to in law, but there is nothing to stop you building and wiring a property to USA standards so visitors can use their equipment, this has been done on USA air force bases. All that is needed is that it is safe.

 

[winston1]

Yes I know with rented property it is referred to in law, but there is nothing to stop you building and wiring a property to USA standards so visitors can use their equipment, this has been done on USA air force bases. All that is needed is that it is safe.

Are you sure about that? US bases are probably outside UK regs just like an embassy. I think you would be on sticky ground wiring a normal properly to US code.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The UK regulations are not mandatory; merely regarded as one way of ensuring safety.

Do you not think US code is safe? What about German?

 

[ericmark]

I had often wondered as to how the supply was done? Not sure if an inverter of some type so 60 Hz, or just a transformer so still 50 Hz, they did have 120 - 0 - 120 supply I know, and as the US base reduced size so UK residents moved in, in the main ex-US service personal so were happy with 120 - 0 -120 volt supply. As to what has happened today I don't know.

But as @EFLImpudence says there is nothing to stop a house being built to any EU standard, our Part P was written before we decided to leave the EU so was written to allow any EU standard to be used, however not sure how the LABC would read German regulations, our regulations may not even be valid in Wales, as under Welsh law all documents must be available in Welsh as well as English, so if not published in Welsh it can't be enforced.

So one can use BS 7671 to show reasonable care has not been used to make the home safe, but it is not law, so lack of any paper work will not impact on safety, so is not required other than to satisfy the county council that the property is safe, so be it a compliance certificate, completion certificate, EICR, EIC or recite detailing the work, all that matters is that it is in writing, British health and safety laws require it is in writing, could even be email or text message in some cases, but must be in writing.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes I know with rented property it is referred to in law, but there is nothing to stop you building and wiring a property to USA standards so visitors can use their equipment, this has been done on USA air force bases. All that is needed is that it is safe.

It's not really anything to do with "in law" (which, as you know, in the UK is just one sentence which says that electrical work must be done safely) but whether you talk about this, you fail to quote the caveat to what you are saying - that, in some circumstances, one can utilise non-UK Standards/regulations but only provided that so doing does not result in an installation which is 'less safe' than would be required by BS7671.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

But as @EFLImpudence says there is nothing to stop a house being built to any EU standard ...

I'm not at all sure that that is the intended meaning of what EFLI wrote.

... our Part P was written before we decided to leave the EU so was written to allow any EU standard to be used ....

As I recently wrote, (the one sentence of) Part P says absolutely nothing about about what Standards (if any) need to be followed to satisfy the law.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Diver Fred]

I had often wondered as to how the supply was done? Not sure if an inverter of some type so 60 Hz, or just a transformer so still 50 Hz, they did have 120 - 0 - 120 supply I know, and as the US base reduced size so UK residents moved in, in the main ex-US service personal so were happy with 120 - 0 -120 volt supply. As to what has happened today I don't know.

Well speaking from the experience of living in an ex-USA air base house in the UK the USA spec sockets were powered via a 55-0-55V 20A transformer. When we moved in there was just 4 single UK 13A sockets (fridge, washing machine, dishwasher points in the kitchen; 1 in the heater plant 'room'). Rest of the house had 240V outlets using FCU's - 2 in the lounge, 1 on landing, 1 in main bedroom by the nursery door. Quite a job changing the FCU's for 13A doubles.
USA outlets - there was 5 doubles in the lounge, 3 in the kitchen over the worktop, 2 in each bedroom, 1 double in the bathroom.

Any appliance rated over 1KW was permanently connected on 240v. Had similar in the Condo I lived and worked in Colorado Springs.

If I built myself a house I'd wire it as per the USA spec, just seems to be so much safer; especially with young children around.

 

[JohnW2]

If I built myself a house I'd wire it as per the USA spec, just seems to be so much safer; especially with young children around.

One thing to think about is that such an approach can result in a sense of false confidence, hence potentially complacency. Given appropriate circumstances (and 'victims') 55V can be plenty enough to kill, particularly young children.

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

Do you not think US code is safe? What about German?

Neither would be acceptable to our regs. The US does not have sleeved pins, allows two different phases on each half of a double socket, and joins cables with wire nuts. German plugs and sockets are unpolarised.

 

[winston1]

One thing to think about is that such an approach can result in a sense of false confidence, hence potentially complacency. Given appropriate circumstances (and 'victims') 55V can be plenty enough to kill, particularly young children.

Kind Regards, John

US spec is not 55-0-55. It is 120v live to neutral. Even more potential to kill!

 

[EFLImpudence]

Neither would be acceptable to our regs.

The regulations are not statutory.

The US does not have sleeved pins, allows two different phases on each half of a double socket, and joins cables with wire nuts.

Does that matter?

German plugs and sockets are unpolarised.

That does not matter on 16A circuits.