EICs

[ban-all-sheds]

If you can't inspect certain things then you can't inspect them, and that's all there is to it, so you put N/A, or cross them out.

As long as whatever you do do complies with BS 7671 then you can sign the declaration to say that what you did, i.e. the inspection and testing as detailed on the schedule, complied.

What value there is in an EIC with inspections missing and no signatures for design and construction is the problem of the person you give it to, not yours.

 

[GaryMo]

There's a form more specific for those requirements - a PIR! An EIC issued under those circumstances wouldn't be worth a jot!

 

[FingRinal]

I agree Gary.

BAS, you're wrong on this one I'm afraid. What if the inspector decides not to or can't measure Zs, or polarity, or Ze? Would it be acceptable to put n/a in the relevant boxes because it wasn't done? Who decides which bits can be left out or not.

A DIYer can do whatever he likes, but a professional can't be so lax.

If you can't certify something then it can't be certified.

Edit: Gary you're right about LIMs - got carried away there. I do more PIRs than EICs.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, you're wrong on this one I'm afraid. What if the inspector decides not to or can't measure Zs, or polarity, or Ze? Would it be acceptable to put n/a in the relevant boxes because it wasn't done? Who decides which bits can be left out or not.

He can't just decide not to on a whim.

But if he does properly do everything he can, and documents what he can't then what reason can there possibly be for not declaring that what he was able to do complied with the regulations?

A DIYer can do whatever he likes, but a professional can't be so lax.

It's not being lax, it's saying "I was only able to do this, but that which I did complied with BS 7671".

If you can't certify something then it can't be certified.

Err - that's what I said...

 

[Pensdown]

What if the inspector decides not to or can't measure Zs, or polarity, or Ze? Would it be acceptable to put n/a in the relevant boxes because it wasn't done? Who decides which bits can be left out or not.

That does happen. For example, how would you measure Zs for a circuit fed from an online UPS? And how would measure Ze for a PIR that was being done on one floor of the Natwest Tower?

 

[FingRinal]

We're talking about EICs and not PIRs (see above)...

 

[Pensdown]

Although the the same applies I will re-word the question. How would Zs be measure if a new circuit was added to an existing UPS backed DB?

How would Ze be measured if a new DB was installed on the 35th floor of the Natwest Tower fed from the rising bus bar?

 

[FingRinal]

Are you sure you mean 'Zs' on the UPS? This being a DIY forum, the various complexities of the numerous UPS equipments and setups..etc...if you care to post on the IET Forum, it might make an interesting thread.

Proper Ze wouldn't be measured in the Natwest Tower -f or obvious reasons. But that doesn't mean the measurement can't or shouldn't be taken. But, it would be taken at a different place to the origin and strictly speaking, it wouldn't be called Ze.

Hope this helps you out at work.

 

[sparkyspike]

It depends what certs you use. Some certs have a box for Ze info where the CU isn't at the supply source.

I'm not going to get involved with this job for two reasons: firstly another electrician has offered to do it; secondly it's not my problem and I have already offered my advice. But I'm still interested in resolving the argument.

As far as I can see there are two valid opinions:

1. You can't EIC an installation without having done the work. A PIR would be appropriate.

2. You can get round this by making up a small part of the installation purely for the purpose of allowing the DNO to connect. I can see the similarity between this and Building Site supplies where the power is not yet connected.

I can't believe that this is a good position for the supplier nor the installer to be in, yet I imagine this occurs often. At the end of the day, the property owner is at the mercy of the electrician doing the work - and whether a PIR is done after connection is up to them. At some point - particuarly with letting agents - paperwork is gong to have to be looked at.

 

[GaryMo]

It depends what certs you use. Some certs have a box for Ze info where the CU isn't at the supply source.

Ze (by definition) can only be measured at one place - the origin of supply.
Measured anywhere else (a CU fed from a submain) is effectively Zs (or Zdb).

 

[securespark]

You cant place limitations on the schedule of items inspected which forms part of an EIC so no LIM's, only ticks or N/A.

What about a board change?

Surely you need to put "LIMS" on the EIC sometimes. The limitation being that you cannot inspect certain things.

I know I have. With the best will in the world, you cannot examine all parts of an installation.

 

[GaryMo]

You cant place limitations on the schedule of items inspected which forms part of an EIC so no LIM's, only ticks or N/A.

What about a board change?

Surely you need to put "LIMS" on the EIC sometimes. The limitation being that you cannot inspect certain things.

I know I have. With the best will in the world, you cannot examine all parts of an installation.

What can't you inspect?
You install a new consumer unit and probably tails. Surely all that can be inspected and tested?

Existing circuits covered by the PIR you carried out prior....

Have a look at BS7671:2008, page 340.
Bottom line:

LIM - to indicate that, exceptionally, a limitation agreed with the person ordering the work prevented the inspection being carried out (applicable for a periodic inspection only).

 

[Pensdown]

BAS, you're wrong on this one I'm afraid. What if the inspector decides not to or can't measure Zs, or polarity, or Ze? Would it be acceptable to put n/a in the relevant boxes because it wasn't done? Who decides which bits can be left out or not.DIYer can do whatever he likes, but a professional can't be so lax.

I'm just pointing out that in some cases it is acceptable not to measure Zs or Ze. And it's the inspector who decides. But even if it's not measured putting n/a in the relevant boxes is not acceptable.

I am a member of IET but I would only post a question on their forum if I didn't already know the answer.

 

[FingRinal]

If you take a look at the note at the bottom of the Sched. Inspections page in the big red book...

 

[GaryMo]

If you take a look at the note at the bottom of the Sched. Inspections page in the big red book...

Beat you to it - ^^^^