1980s Girling caliper with integral handbrake problems

[fixitflav]

Hi All,

I'm struggling here! It's a 1989 Alfa 164. The handbrake was pretty bad, so I treated it to new Brembo discs and pads, and had the rear calipers reconditioned by Bigg Red.

Unfortunately, the handbrake has failed the MOT twice now, for poor efficiency. What's more, I do have to admit it's pretty bad! It will just about hold the car on a 1-in-10 hill. According to the MOT brake tester, I'm getting 120 kgf on the offside and 88 on the nearside. With the brake test weight of 1500kg, that leaves me with just under 15% efficiency, and I need 16 or more. There's no chance of locking a rear wheel on dry tarmac.

I've tried adjusting the pistons manually by twisting them. I've also tried letting the calipers self-adjust by just fitting them fully retracted and pressing the brake pedal a few times. Footbrake efficiency is OK.

I've tried adjusting the cable every which way too. I haven't replaced the cable but it "looks" OK and with it disconnected, I can pull the inner cable with just finger effort, on both sides, so I assume it's not seized. There MIGHT be more friction in it under load, of course.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to try next! I'd be grateful for any thoughts, please.

Can you operate the handbrake mech on the caliper with a spanner? I have Bosch calipers and the mech is a piece of bent pressed steel about 4mm thick, and I can get an adjustable on it.
If so, does that apply the brake, with a reasonable amount of travel, say 10mm off the stop? And does it move fairly freely, and the spring retract it? If not, sounds like the self-adjustment isn't working right.

 

[DIYspanner]

If so, does that apply the brake, with a reasonable amount of travel, say 10mm off the stop? And does it move fairly freely, and the spring retract it? If not, sounds like the self-adjustment isn't working right.

If no, surely that's a warranty rework for BiggRed?

 

[fixitflav]

If no, surely that's a warranty rework for BiggRed?

Probably is, but he wants to fix it in time for his free retest!
He hasn't confirmed whether his caliper is the one you posted, but that one is pretty much identical to my Bosch. You can see where I get the adjustable on to work the lever.
Found a Girling one Here
I'm with Burnerman in being suspicious about the bad piston retracting. That doesn't sound right.

 

[DIYspanner]

Piston operation can be observed with the caliper removed from the carrier, pads removed and caliper handbrake lever operated surely?

 

[Avocet]

Is this the caliper type you have?

That's a generic image, I think. Mine don't QUITE look like that. (And the car isn't worth the cost of a pair of them at that price anyway)!

 

[Avocet]

Can you operate the handbrake mech on the caliper with a spanner? I have Bosch calipers and the mech is a piece of bent pressed steel about 4mm thick, and I can get an adjustable on it.
If so, does that apply the brake, with a reasonable amount of travel, say 10mm off the stop? And does it move fairly freely, and the spring retract it? If not, sounds like the self-adjustment isn't working right.

Not quite, but I can clamp a pair of Mole grips on to the lever to achieve much the same thing. One is better than the other, but yes, both will stop the wheel within a reasonable amount of travel. When I say "stop the wheel", I mean, "prevent me being able to turn it by hand".

 

[Avocet]

Probably is, but he wants to fix it in time for his free retest!
He hasn't confirmed whether his caliper is the one you posted, but that one is pretty much identical to my Bosch. You can see where I get the adjustable on to work the lever.
Found a Girling one Here
I'm with Burnerman in being suspicious about the bad piston retracting. That doesn't sound right.

Again, similar but not the same. The abutment for my handbrake cable is part of the casting rather than a separate bracket like that one.

 

[Avocet]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

Just an update on this. I soaked the cable with PTFE spray and took it back to the MOT station on Thursday. I think they took pity on me and it did JUST scrape a pass. (I didn't ask how many of them were heaving on the handbrake lever at the time)!

My new cable then arrived, and I fitted that on Saturday, but other than making the lever operation a bit lighter, the handbrake isn't really significantly better. OK, it scraped through an MOT, but with all those new / reconditioned components, I feel it should have been MUCH better than it was!

I spoke to Bigg Red today and they'd be happy to take them back at their cost if I can get them off the car, and they'll have another look at them. They confirmed that the one that wasn't ratcheting out, should have been. That seems decent enough of them. I'll see if I can take them off tonight and get them parcelled up. Beyond that, I'm left with the possibility that the new pads are simply the wrong compound, I guess? They've done a good 50 miles now, and some of that has been with me operating the handbrake whilst driving, to try and get them to bed-in, so I'm still a bit mystified!

 

[fixitflav]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

Just an update on this. I soaked the cable with PTFE spray and took it back to the MOT station on Thursday. I think they took pity on me and it did JUST scrape a pass. (I didn't ask how many of them were heaving on the handbrake lever at the time)!

My new cable then arrived, and I fitted that on Saturday, but other than making the lever operation a bit lighter, the handbrake isn't really significantly better. OK, it scraped through an MOT, but with all those new / reconditioned components, I feel it should have been MUCH better than it was!

I spoke to Bigg Red today and they'd be happy to take them back at their cost if I can get them off the car, and they'll have another look at them. They confirmed that the one that wasn't ratcheting out, should have been. That seems decent enough of them. I'll see if I can take them off tonight and get them parcelled up. Beyond that, I'm left with the possibility that the new pads are simply the wrong compound, I guess? They've done a good 50 miles now, and some of that has been with me operating the handbrake whilst driving, to try and get them to bed-in, so I'm still a bit mystified!

The auto adjustment can be troublesome. In Jan this year I wanted to fit new pads for MOT, and the RH piston wouldn't retract however much I twisted and pushed. But I had a spare caliper in stock so fitted that. Playing around with the one that came off, I peeled back the rubber boot and dribbled in some brake fluid followed by rubber grease and it started to work. So if you still have the old ones you could try that, be interesting if nothing else.
I'd be surprised if the wrong pad material gave your symptoms.
BTW my MOT man said the brakes were spot on.

 

[Avocet]

The auto adjustment can be troublesome. In Jan this year I wanted to fit new pads for MOT, and the RH piston wouldn't retract however much I twisted and pushed. But I had a spare caliper in stock so fitted that. Playing around with the one that came off, I peeled back the rubber boot and dribbled in some brake fluid followed by rubber grease and it started to work. So if you still have the old ones you could try that, be interesting if nothing else.
I'd be surprised if the wrong pad material gave your symptoms.
BTW my MOT man said the brakes were spot on.

Yes, I still have the old ones (I'd sent a pair salvaged from a scrapper to be reconditioned, so that I wasn't stuck without the car). However, both mine can be wound back in very easily, so that's not the problem. With my originals ones, when I fitted the new pads and discs, I obviously had to wind them right back in, to fit them, but the handbrake mechanism (when they were fully in) wouldn't then push the pistons back out. It's as if there were some teeth messing off the ratchet mechanism at the start of its travel.

 

[fixitflav]

Yes, I still have the old ones (I'd sent a pair salvaged from a scrapper to be reconditioned, so that I wasn't stuck without the car). However, both mine can be wound back in very easily, so that's not the problem. With my originals ones, when I fitted the new pads and discs, I obviously had to wind them right back in, to fit them, but the handbrake mechanism (when they were fully in) wouldn't then push the pistons back out. It's as if there were some teeth messing off the ratchet mechanism at the start of its travel.

OK, sounds like it's down to Bigg Red. Just one thought - the MOT tests brake balance. Did they mention a problem? Be interesting to know if the suspect side is much worse.

 

[Keithmac]

Have you got a good picture of the caliper?.

My MK2 Golf was on Girlings iirc and the only real fix was to fit MK4 calipers on the back which were practically a straight swap.

 

[Avocet]

OK, sounds like it's down to Bigg Red. Just one thought - the MOT tests brake balance. Did they mention a problem? Be interesting to know if the suspect side is much worse.

The MOT inspection manual says an imbalance of more than 30% (i.e. the effort from one wheel is less than 70% of the effort from the other wheel) is a fail. However, at 88 and 120, it just falls within that.

 

[Avocet]

Have you got a good picture of the caliper?.

My MK2 Golf was on Girlings iirc and the only real fix was to fit MK4 calipers on the back which were practically a straight swap.

Just off out to the garage to take them off now!

 

[fixitflav]

Just off out to the garage to take them off now!

Keep us posted, won't you. It's an interesting problem.