Is an EIC acceptable for a rental?

[Milleniumaire]

This week we are having the original "fuse box" replaced in our 1940's two up/two down rental property.

I have just checked with the electrician that he will be providing an EICR and he has responded saying this isn't necessary as he will provide an EIC.

A quick Google suggests this may only be acceptable for new builds and where the property has been completely re-wired, but for the installation of a new consumer unit this may not be regarded as sufficient testing, although obviously all the electrics will need to be tested!

Before I contact my local council to get their view, I would be interested in your feedback on when an EIC is not an acceptable substitute for an EICR.

Thanks.

 

[CBW]

I think you may be confusing the 2. Eicr is for the whole property. The eic will cover the changeover of the consumer unit only. Do you already have an eicr? Did you ask the electrician to perform an eicr?

 

[JohnW2]

... A quick Google suggests this may only be acceptable for new builds and where the property has been completely re-wired, but for the installation of a new consumer unit this may not be regarded as sufficient testing, although obviously all the electrics will need to be tested!....

I would personally agree with that. The inspection and testing required when replacing a CU (and providing an EIC) does not cover a lot of things that would be in the scope of an EICR.

Having said that, whilst most people seem to interpret the the 'private rental sector' legislation as requiring an EICR, it is in fact very vague - only requiring "an inspection" (and not mentioning EICRs explicitly at all), so it is anyone's guess as to how any individual local authority would choose to interpret it!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I think you may be confusing the 2. Eicr is for the whole property. The eic will cover the changeover of the consumer unit only. ...

The 'testing' required for the EIC after a CU change will probably be much the same as would be required for an EICR, but the scope of the 'inspection' part of an EICR is much greater than it would be for the 'CU change EIC'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Milleniumaire]

I have asked the electrician to provide an EICR when installing the new consumer unit and his response was that it wasn't necessary as he would be providing me with an EIC.

I'm not sure an EIC is sufficient for a rental and wondered why he thinks it would be acceptable.

The property doesn't currently have an EICR. The CU upgrade/EICR has been planned for a while, unfortunately the existing tenants have been pushing back due to a) Covid - one of them has been shielding due to health issues and b) They have been working from home.

It was my understanding that an EIC wouldn't be sufficient, however, having looked at an example it seems to have a section (9?) that shows a lot of detailed testing, so wasn't sure if this was additional to a standard EIC. Are there different "levels" of EIC? Possibly the electrician is planning to provide one that includes whole house testing as I believe an EIC is acceptable if the wiring has been changed, so clearly it is possible to record lots of testing.

 

[Milleniumaire]

The 'testing' required for the EIC after a CU change will probably be much the same as would be required for an EICR, but the scope of the 'inspection' part of an EICR is much greater than it would be for the 'CU change EIC'.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks John. I read your posts after I had submitted mine.

I guess I am wondering if it is possible for an EIC to include "additional" testing, so that it becomes as "detailed" as an EICR? Either way I think I need to have a conversation with the electrician, but don't really want to tell him how to do his job!

That's probably a bit strong as I guess I would be asking him to do additional work to provide an EICR.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks John. I read your posts after I had submitted mine. .... I guess I am wondering if it is possible for an EIC to include "additional" testing, so that it becomes as "detailed" as an EICR? Either way I think I need to have a conversation with the electrician, but don't really want to tell him how to do his job!

As I've just written, the 'inadequacy' (in comparison with an EICR) of the 'CU change EIC' is not really to do with the 'testing' part (which would be much, if not exactly, the same for either) but, rather, the inspections required for an EICR that would not be required for an EIC.

That's probably a bit strong as I guess I would be asking him to do additional work to provide an EICR.

Quite. If you think about it, if he was going to do as much 'inspection and testing' to produce the EIC as he would to produce an EICR, then he would probably provide an EICR for minimal (if any) cost, just to cover his copying the information from one bit of paper to another. The fact that he isn't doing that provides reasonable confirmation that he would have to do appreciably more work to produce an EICR - which is another way of saying that the work he will do for the EIC is not enough for an EICR!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

3.—(1) A private landlord(1) who grants or intends to grant a specified tenancy must—
(a)ensure that the electrical safety standards are met during any period when the residential premises(2) are occupied under a specified tenancy;
(b)ensure every electrical installation in the residential premises is inspected and tested at regular intervals by a qualified person;

(3) Following the inspection and testing required under sub-paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) a private landlord must—
(a)obtain a report from the person conducting that inspection and test, which gives the results of the inspection and test and the date of the next inspection and test;

“consumer’s installation” means the electric lines situated upon the consumer’s side of the supply terminals together with any equipment permanently connected or intended to be permanently connected thereto on that side;

I think these are the bits that matter, as you see nothing about EICR or EIC, reading through the Guidance for Landlords the document does not seem to tie in with the law, it talks about

check if the inspector is a member of a competent person scheme; or require the inspector to sign a check list certifying their competence, including their experience, whether they have adequate insurance and hold a qualification covering the current version of the Wiring Regulations and the periodic inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations.

but this is not talked about with the law, in fact a house buyer survey which we all know is no where near what is done with an EICR it seems would comply with the law as the person doing it is a professional and seems to tick the boxes.

As with most laws the laws over time are altered with case law, and once some one who is not qualified is caught out and a court case results it is likely case law will close the loop holes, but unless some one is killed, it is unlikely to come to court, so case law is rather slow. There was on another forum reference to "Domestic Electrical Installation Condition Report - DPM18. Electrical installation condition report for domestic properties." it seems these documents can be bought to be filled in by electrical contractors not enrolled or registered with NICEIC or Elecsa and for Approved Contractors working outside of their scope of enrolment. Why they would wont to not sure as free down load from IET, but it seems these forms are a combined EIC and EICR so it would seem in many cases no you would not need a separate EICR.

 

[Milleniumaire]

I contacted my electrician, who is also a family friend, and he explained that he no longer has his NICEIC membership as he allowed it to expire last year after 30 years. He works as an electrician in the commercial sector now, so doesn't really do any work in residential properties and was only doing this for me as a favour. Because of this he explained he can't provide me with the required EICR and so thinks it best if he doesn't do the job.

So, I'm now looking for a new electrician to install a consumer unit and perform an EICR in a rental property in Farsley, Leeds, West Yorkshire!

 

[ericmark]

I contacted my electrician, who is also a family friend, and he explained that he no longer has his NICEIC membership as he allowed it to expire last year after 30 years. He works as an electrician in the commercial sector now, so doesn't really do any work in residential properties and was only doing this for me as a favour. Because of this he explained he can't provide me with the required EICR and so thinks it best if he doesn't do the job.

So, I'm now looking for a new electrician to install a consumer unit and perform an EICR in a rental property in Farsley, Leeds, West Yorkshire!

He can do an EICR if he has the knowledge, in the main C&G 2391 is considered as the qualification required, however there may be a problem with insurance.

I have refused domestic work, as it simply cost too much to get the completion certificate. My son was talking the other day about his own house, which he intends to rent out, there is no reason why he should not write out his own EICR, he has his C&G 2391, but there is a clear conflict of interests if he does his own. But garages selling cars do their own MOT's, so why not?

But the problem with domestic is when a job escalates, was only going to add a socket, but now find it needs a socket in kitchen as well, and the kitchen in Wales is a special location.

When working on the building of a power station we would get a whole series of people wanting us to do some work for them, we would say yes Sam does domestic he will even give you a VAT receipt, and then they were not interested, what they wanted was work done on the cheap or free.

Not sure what a commercial electrician gets paid today, self employed likely £25 per hour or more, my time was charged out at £25 an hour in 1985, so could well be £50 an hour now, and in the main house owners will not pay that.

 

[JohnW2]

I contacted my electrician, who is also a family friend, and he explained that he no longer has his NICEIC membership as he allowed it to expire last year after 30 years. He works as an electrician in the commercial sector now, so doesn't really do any work in residential properties and was only doing this for me as a favour. Because of this he explained he can't provide me with the required EICR and so thinks it best if he doesn't do the job.

As eric has said, he could provide an EICR if he wanted to - even I could, and I am not, and never have been, any sort of electrician.

As I said before (and eric has illustrated with quoted material), the PRS legislation does not even mention EICRs - although, in practice, what everyone is doing for the purpose of this legislation is an eicr, and recording the results on EICR forms. The legislation merely requires 'an inspection' to be undertaken by a "qualified person", which it defines (essentially just as 'competent') as:

“qualified person” means a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards;

... and I would imagine that your friend (a practising electrician, presumably working to the same regulations that apply to residential properties) would qualify as 'competent'.

If he were willing and you wanted to pursue that course, you could try asking your local authority whether they would be satisfied by an 'inspection' undertaken by this person, but I wouldn't guarantee that they will understand what you are talking about, or know how to answer In reality, I suspect that, in many cases, any sort of bit of paper documenting 'an inspection' and signed by somebody with some 'electrical qualifications' would probably satisfy them!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

If he were willing and you wanted to pursue that course, you could try asking your local authority whether they would be satisfied by an 'inspection' undertaken by this person, but I wouldn't guarantee that they will understand what you are talking about, or know how to answer In reality, I suspect that, in many cases, any sort of bit of paper documenting 'an inspection' and signed by somebody with some 'electrical qualifications' would probably satisfy them!

Kind Regards, John

When I came to do my mothers wet room I had a hard job to persuade the LABC inspector I had the skill.

He wanted to get some one else to check our work, my so said OK but he must be more qualified than my dad and he has a degree, and only then did he back down.

He admitted he did not have a clue what was required, the then new law part P so they tried to get everything inspected and tested by some one they trusted.

Read this forum and you will see how long standing time served electricians can't agree as to what is required, and I would expect LABC inspectors are the same.

Argument is not what should be done, but what the law asks for, need a degree in English.

 

[JohnW2]

When I came to do my mothers wet room I had a hard job to persuade the LABC inspector I had the skill.

This is not LABC but, rather, the LA's Housing Department, who may well not know the difference between an 'electrical inspection' and a dental inspection .

I obviously might be wrong, but if they read the legislation, and see that a report of 'an inspection' has been signed by someone with 'electrical qualifications', I suspect that they may well decide that the person fulfils the legislation's requirement for a report provided by a ('competent') "qualified person".

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

If he were willing and you wanted to pursue that course, you could try asking your local authority whether they would be satisfied by an 'inspection' undertaken by this person, but I wouldn't guarantee that they will understand what you are talking about, or know how to answer

I think you'd most likely find that the answer they give is "is he a member of a scam ?, No ? not acceptable then". For them it's the easiest approach to take - because if the person is a scam member but turns out not to be competent, they have the defence that the scams have professional standards and we are supposed to accept that their members are competent. To accept results from someone not a scam member, they'd then have to assess whether they were competent or not, and that would mean understanding enough about electrics to be able to assess that.
There's a consultation been done in Scotland where they are looking at tightening things up to protect the public from "problem" electricians. Needless to say, the scams are all in favour of mandatory membership like we have with gas.

 

[JohnW2]

I think you'd most likely find that the answer they give is "is he a member of a scam ?, No ? not acceptable then".

That's quite possible. However, as I recently said, given that it's the Housing Dept (not LABC) we are talking about, it would not surprise me if they accepted someone with demonstrable 'electrical qualifications' (and experience, if they asked - given his history of 30 years' NICEIC membership) as being a "qualified person" in the context of the PRS legislation.

Don't forget, all they have to look at is the legislation, and that says absolutely nothing about "scam membership" and, being the Housing Dept, may well not even know of the existence of the Schemes/"scams". Since all the legislation calls for is "qualified" and "competent", I therefore wouldn't be surprised if they would accept evidence of 'qualifications' (and experience, if necessary) as fulfilling the requirement of the legislation ... but who knows?!

Kind Regards, John