New Zealand

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Not just like the rest of them ...

1. Hubbard is in the highest weight category for women, there are not many other woman (when I last looked) in that category
2. Hubbard has been competing just a like a woman, who spent 20 years doping & taking illegal substance to boost their sporting performance

The top weight category for women in 87 kg and over, Hubbard weighs in at a manly 130kg

By comparison, Tatiana Kashirina (top ranked in the world), one of the largest women who also competes in the 87+ group, weighs 108.25kg.

Still think it is fair?

But hopefully we'll see women kick the old guy's arse this year. If Hubbard wins there will be carnage.

On whether this issue is fair or not, I reserve judgement. But I would repeat that sport in general is not equal. There will always be inequalities in sport.
All that the relevant committees can do is work towards making it as equal as possible.

As you point out, there is no guarantee of success for this athlete.
I don't know the details of the weight categories, nor the details of this athletes background or physical attributes.
I don't base my argument on assumptions about unknown issues.

If she has always been fundamentally a woman, she may not have benefitted from the advantages that male athletes naturally enjoy, such as the higher levels of testosterone. So that is a theoretical argument, and not necessarily accurate without the full knowledge of the medical tests, etc.

I still question the argument about athletes transitioning based purely on a desire to win in sport. I don't see that as a sufficient motivation for a lifetime change of such magnitude.

As you point out, she is not a young athlete, and maybe she has been competing in the wrong category for most of her life.

Edit; I think I've covered your subsequent comment in this post.

 

[JohnD]

As said, sex isn't binary.
Some believe it is. The evidence suggests otherwise.

No it doesn't.

 

[JP_]

she may not have benefitted from the advantages that male athletes naturally enjoy

She did manage to become national junior male weightlifting champion, that would suggest she benefitted.

 

[JohnD]

sex is not binary.

yes it is.

you're thinking of gender, which in fashionable usage can be chosen and defined by the person concerned according to their whim of the moment.

 

[JohnD]

If she has always been fundamentally a woman

strawwoman argument.

she hasn't.

But it is not relevant.

The question is, can an athlete who is a man, redefine themselves as a woman and compete in womens events, with the physical advantages of having previously been a man.

A person with cock and balls, testosterone and male muscle mass, is welcome to compete in the Olympics or any other event, against other athletes who also have cock and balls, testosterone and male muscle mass. That is not unfair.

 

[JP_]

I still question the argument about athletes transitioning based purely on a desire to win in sport.

I am not suggesting this. My only issue is with transitioned athletes competing at all. I really think we have to say to women that transitioned from men, sorry, you cannot compete against women that have always been women. That is the only fair way.

 

[transam]

Way things are going there will have to be 3 classes in athletics / olympics

men

woman

and transgender

 

[EFLImpudence]

Or - only have one class in all sports as women's classes are blatantly sexist.

 

[JP_]

Or, just let everybody dope up to make women truly equal to men

 

[transam]

Or, just let everybody dope up to make women truly equal to men

the Russians and East Germans did that in the 70’s

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

No it doesn't.

Yes it is.
Sex is assigned at birth based on the midwifes or the families decision. It is not biologically assigned by anything other than a cursory inspection.

3.Variations in sex characteristics

Sex and gender are both generally referred to in two distinct categories: male and female or man and woman. However, there are naturally occurring instances of variations in sex characteristics (sometimes known as intersex). This is where people are born with hormones, chromosomes, anatomy or other characteristics that are neither exclusively male nor female. They are usually assigned a sex (male or female) by their family or doctor at birth as birth certificates require the sex of the child – either male or female. Individuals with variations in sex characteristics might identify as male, female, or intersex, and they may consider themselves to be a man, a woman, or to have a non-binary identity.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
​

If the birth certificate says female, they are considered to be female.
But the Olympic committee go further and have medical tests to determine the assigned sex.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

She did manage to become national junior male weightlifting champion, that would suggest she benefitted.

It would suggest that she might have benefited. But it's not a given.
The test that was conducted on her suggests that her testosterone levels were below that of a man, and nearer to an average female level.

 

[transam]

Lunatics have taken over the asylum

fruit cakes

if one can self identify as a different sex from which you were born

how about self identifying as a different ethnic group or race

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

strawwoman argument.

An 'if' condition can not be a strawman argument. It's a conditional argument. If the condition is met, then the statement stands. if the condition is not met, the statement does not stand. That logically can't be a strawman argument.

she hasn't.
But it is not relevant.

You have access to her test results, and her medical history? Or are you guessing based on some minimal media reports?
Of course it's relevant. If she has always been fundamentally female, she's been competing in the wrong category.
I think you're making sweeping statements based on the scarcest of detail.

The question is, can an athlete who is a man, redefine themselves as a woman and compete in womens events, with the physical advantages of having previously been a man.

The question could be defined as: can a female, who has been competing in men's events, compete in a woman's event?

A person with cock and balls, testosterone and male muscle mass, is welcome to compete in the Olympics or any other event, against other athletes who also have cock and balls, testosterone and male muscle mass. That is not unfair.

Do you know if your claim is true, that she has cock and balls. Or are you basing your argument on the basis that it is not necessary for a female athlete to not be endowed with cock and balls?
What if the female athlete only has some of those attributes? Or is the criteria based on any one of those attributes?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Lunatics have taken over the asylum

fruit cakes

if one can self identify as a different sex from which you were born

how about self identifying as a different ethnic group or race

You're being typically stupid.
It isn't, for the umpteenth time, merely about self-identification.
There are medical tests to ensure that the claimed sex or gender is correctly allocated.

Self identification of ethnic grouping already exists. One can choose one's nationality, religion, etc.
There is no sporting category for different ethnicities. There is no penalty for changing your ethnic grouping, well, not in the western world, at least.
It wasn't possible at one time in South Africa, or America.
If one did self declare as a different ethnicity to that in which you were born, who is going to do what?
You're being typically stupid.