New Zealand

[JohnD]

From an interesting article by a TW.

"To those who believe that transwomen are women, the answer is simple: transwomen must serve custodial sentences in the female prison estate.

Objections can be dismissed as transphobic attempts to exclude one type of women just because they had the misfortune to be born with the wrong set of genitals.

However, while I might be a transwoman I am also a science teacher. In 2017, I rejected the transwomen are women argument when I could not defend it from the most basic challenge:

1. Transwomen are male
2. Women are female
3. Male people are not female people
4. Therefore transwomen are not women

We may long to be the other sex, but we might as well long to live for ever. Science cannot be fooled even if people can be. As a falsehood it is dangerous to both women – who lose the ability to control their boundaries from males who choose to identify as transwomen – and children who are sold a totally unrealistic vision of a future where they can choose their sex."

https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/prison-service-needs-work-facts-not-fiction

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

From an interesting article by a TW.

"To those who believe that transwomen are women, the answer is simple: transwomen must serve custodial sentences in the female prison estate.

Objections can be dismissed as transphobic attempts to exclude one type of women just because they had the misfortune to be born with the wrong set of genitals.

However, while I might be a transwoman I am also a science teacher. In 2017, I rejected the transwomen are women argument when I could not defend it from the most basic challenge:

1. Transwomen are male
2. Women are female
3. Male people are not female people
4. Therefore transwomen are not women

We may long to be the other sex, but we might as well long to live for ever. Science cannot be fooled even if people can be. As a falsehood it is dangerous to both women – who lose the ability to control their boundaries from males who choose to identify as transwomen – and children who are sold a totally unrealistic vision of a future where they can choose their sex."

https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/prison-service-needs-work-facts-not-fiction

No-one is attempting to fool science, but some are ignoring the science.

You are still refusing to address the issue of trans men in women's prisons and competing in women's sports.
You've also avoided posting your TRA definition for debate.

 

[JohnD]

You've also avoided posting your TRA definition for debate.

Apart from uttering the words "I am a woman" is there anything that you, yes you, consider to be necessary for a man to turn into a woman?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Apart from uttering the words "I am a woman" is there anything that you, yes you, consider to be necessary for a man to turn into a woman?

For the umpteenth time, they do not turn into a woman, they consider themselves already as a woman.

Are you familiar with the concept of petitio principii, where your question contains an assumption that your fundamental belief is correct?
"Are you still beating your wife?" is another example of petitio principii.
Until you disabuse yourself of your ideological belief, you will never be in a position to ask the correct questions.

 

[JP_]

they consider themselves already as a woman

A woman that decided to compete in the male weightlifting competitions at junior level, and broke national records.

Gavin was some woman.

 

[JohnD]

For the umpteenth time, they do not turn into a woman, they consider themselves already as a woman.

Avoidance.

So do you agree that a man cannot change into a woman?

 

[EFLImpudence]

 

[Captain Nemesis]

I agree that you are never going to turn into someone who will stop looking at every single facet of what is a multifaceted issue except through the prism of his ignorant bigotry, and who will never say anything which is not framed by his desire to preach a fundamentalist doctrine of binary only.

Like a man who thinks that if he says "I am a woman" he will turn into one.

Like someone who thinks that if he says "there are only men and women and they are only to be defined in ways which I like" will turn his distorted denial of reality into actual reality.

A feeling of discomfort or unease does not turn a man into a woman.

A feeling of discomfort or unease with scientific understanding does not turn a bigot into someone who is right.

Belief does not change what you are.

Belief does not change what is true.

 

[Vinty]

I was a bit sceptical about all this transgender stuff and then i saw this pair.

Big John looks like his waters are about to break.

 

[JohnD]

Like someone who thinks that if he says "there are only men and women and they are only to be defined in ways which I like" will turn his distorted denial of reality into actual reality.

ah, you mean like a man who decides to declare himself to be a woman.

Belief does not change what is true.

yes, that's what I've been saying.

 

[Captain Nemesis]

yes, that's what I've been saying.

Shame you keep on doing it then isnt it.

 

[JohnD]

I'm interested in your belief that a man can be a woman.

What, then, in your terms, is a "woman?"

Is it the same as a "man?" Or is it in some way different?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

A woman that decided to compete in the male weightlifting competitions at junior level, and broke national records.

Gavin was some woman.

Be sensible, please Djangobanjo, you know as well as anyone that transgenders realise at different times in their lives that they need to become transgenders.
Some realise in their early childhood, other realise as they approach puberty, and still others have had to endure years of stress, and pressure to be their gender as it conforms to their assigned sex at birth. This is even more so for older transgenders who have had to endure their earlier lives with medical science, and more so, society being ignorant, or refusing to acknowledge the non-binary nature of sex and gender.
At 42 years old it is easily understandable that Laurel was unable to be her true self during her formative years. She openly admits to getting into weight lifting in an attempt to make herself more masculine. That suggests her serious attempts to conform to her assigned sex label at birth. But as medical science and society evolve she realised that she need not be trapped in the wrong gender any more.

So please don't emulate JohnD with blatantly immature arguments.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Avoidance.

So do you agree that a man cannot change into a woman?

A man can transgender to become a woman.
And a woman can transgender to become a man.

In the case of sexual ambiguity, medicine may complete any required transition, so a sexual ambiguous person can become the sex and gender of their choice.
In the case of surgery, some transitioned transgender may opt for surgery to complete their transition.
So yes, sometimes an apparent biological male can become an apparent biological woman, and vice versa.

You're still avoiding addressing the issue of trans men being accommodated in a women's prison, or competing in women's sports.
You're obviously only concerned with trans women being accommodated in women's prisons, or trans women competing in women's sports.
If a woman is always a woman, then trans men must be accommodated in a women's prison. This creates risky situations for the other women.
If a woman is always a woman, then trans men can compete in women's sports despite potentially having received testosterone treatment.
But like a typical bigoted person who refuses to reflect on their flawed ideology, you refuse to consider that issue.

You're also avoiding providing the definition of TRA. Why raise an issue that you then avoid?

 

[JohnD]

You're obviously only concerned with

nonsense

You're also avoiding providing the definition of TRA.

What, then, in your terms, is a "woman?"

Is it the same as a "man?" Or is it in some way different?